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effai
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Post by effai » Fri Jun 14, 2013 11:15 pm

random wrote:
it's in this kind of situation where if feel the differences between our culture are really big


Ideally violence would be a non issue but in reality NOWHERE men exist together are they safe from one another.
"What if" all of France was heavily armed when the Nazis invaded you guys? "What if" ALL of the Jews were heavily armed when the Nazis were exterminating them all over Europe? Would the circumstances have been different?

Europe has seen more war/bloodshed than any other location in modern history... what's the "difference" in our culture that explains it? I myself, an American, was deployed in Europe to keep Europeans from killing one another. My grandfather was sent over to France to save your grandfather and grandmother (or maybe their parents) from the Germans. Why couldn't they save themselves??

Americans are heavily armed. It's a problem in some regards. On the flip side we saved Europe on more than 1 occasion because you weren't able to defend yourselves and still aren't able to defend yourselves...

I personally think everyone should carry weapons, like the Wild West days. If everyone carries guns then criminals won't survive very long... Similar to the "legalize drugs" argument this will never be a reality in our present state of society but I think it's the best scenario/deterrent barring everyone stops hurting one another.

Americans will always have a lot of weapons due to mainly events which occurred outside of America.
what I said wasn't even remotely a critic.... I won't go in this path because we can only disagree on these things....

I understand your point on history, but you can go a bit further too, where America wouldn't exist like this without europe. Europeans are very thankful for what the US did, that's not the point. And allow me to say that it's a bit utopic to think that US came in Europe just to free it. They had some interest in it too.

and I think it's a bit hard to win against panzers and bombers with some 'domestic' guns or rifles.

I agree carrying a gun allows you to feel safe and defend yourself, but it allows anyone, including heavily unbalanced people, to get very easily a weapon and kill lots of people very easily, like in all theses schools.

but again, it wasn't a critic in any kind.
Mahamoti djinn & Terror global sets => I need your help !
viewtopic.php?f=10&t=7846&p=69149#p69149
Other Global sets wantlist : viewtopic.php?f=10&t=9454&p=84467#p84467

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mystical_tutor
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Post by mystical_tutor » Fri Jun 14, 2013 11:29 pm

I can not agree that America "saved" Europe. Take either Europeans or Americans out of the equasion and Europe would be speaking German today.

14 million Russians died stopping the Hitler's war machine. Sure, early on we supplied hardware but later it was Mother Russia that stopped the Nazis and bled them to death.

Take the Britts out of the stratigic boming picture and ME 262s would have been cleaning out the bombing formations.

Only half of the troops that hit the beach and dropped from the skys on D-Day were US.

So While most of the war we sat safely on our island shipping out hardware that would have been worthless without brave Europeans to use it, those that were on the ground resisted and fought with what they had.

True, if they had been individually armed (as the Swiss were) there would have been a much slower walk through of the smaller contries and a lot more units needed for control. But, to say the US "saved" them is to ignore the reality that one without the other would have failed. The US could have entrenched but what if they got the bomb first?

Sorry, but your one sided view of V-E ruffled my feathers.

Gary

notsofasteddie
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Post by notsofasteddie » Sat Jun 15, 2013 12:49 am

mystical_tutor wrote:I can not agree that America "saved" Europe. Take either Europeans or Americans out of the equasion and Europe would be speaking German today.

14 million Russians died stopping the Hitler's war machine. Sure, early on we supplied hardware but later it was Mother Russia that stopped the Nazis and bled them to death.

Take the Britts out of the stratigic boming picture and ME 262s would have been cleaning out the bombing formations.

Only half of the troops that hit the beach and dropped from the skys on D-Day were US.

So While most of the war we sat safely on our island shipping out hardware that would have been worthless without brave Europeans to use it, those that were on the ground resisted and fought with what they had.

True, if they had been individually armed (as the Swiss were) there would have been a much slower walk through of the smaller contries and a lot more units needed for control. But, to say the US "saved" them is to ignore the reality that one without the other would have failed. The US could have entrenched but what if they got the bomb first?

Sorry, but your one sided view of V-E ruffled my feathers.

Gary
Gary has it almost exactly right! I would change the level of the Russian sacrifice to 20-25 Million! They bled for us! They bled big time for us! Old News, but true.

Had the Messerschmitt 262 come into production earlier things might have been different!

Had Hitler been a little less crazed, this would be a different world! How about a Germany that extended from Spain to Scandinavia, then to Poland, and finally incorporated the United Kingdom? It was a closer thing than you would want to know!

The U.S. contributed with both blood and money, but 450,000 dead while more than tragic does not compare to the price that Russia paid!

vegas10
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Post by vegas10 » Sat Jun 15, 2013 5:12 am

Wow this topic has really gone of the tracks, somehow it went from being about a stolen collection to how to best defend your collection, to who saved Europe or the world or whatever during former world wars. Fact of the Matter is during the Revolutionary war the country that would become the USA got help from Europe (France especially) in order to beat the British and become a country, so if one is going to quote US history here lets not act like such an arrogant American, sure we have helped other countries, but lets not act like other countries havn't helped us, heck if it wasn't for China now we couldn't pay our bills with all our debt. Also populations all over the middle east are armed and that hasn't stopped tyrants from having long reigns of terror in several of those nations.

Hayden
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Post by Hayden » Sat Jun 15, 2013 8:17 am

Long live the Knights who say Ni!

hammr7
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Post by hammr7 » Sat Jun 15, 2013 3:15 pm

Hayden wrote:Long live the Knights who say Ni!
When it comes to Magic collections, they were the smartest. They left their collection home!

hammr7
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Post by hammr7 » Sat Jun 15, 2013 3:32 pm

I would also like to note that most of the time theft is not a violent crime. Any decent Magic player should know that stealth and deception are much better tools than brute force. For a successful heist, it is 100 times more effective to get the valuables without being seen. Guns are useless to protect your collection when you are in a convention hall and your collection is being removed from your parked car.

When it comes to non-violent theft, Europe is easily on the same level as the US. On my first trip to Madrid I helped stop a thief at the main train station. On my last trip to Rome I got to see the gypsy kids and their pickpocket games in action. In Milan my friend had 4 different alarm systems on his luxury car, and it still was stolen. In France, Germany and Holland the nuances were different, and often not as obvious, but if you were careless or distracted you could easily be separated from valuables.

And my European friends had similar problems when they came to the US. They were perfectly prepared for the kinds of thefts they experienced at home, but struggled until they realized the rules were a bit different in the States. Like the fact that secure sides of airports aren't necessarily that secure.

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Giediprime41
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Post by Giediprime41 » Sat Jun 15, 2013 5:57 pm

I never meant to derail the topic with my post , for that I am sorry.
I just like to have all my bases covered and in the past this was the best way to keep things safe for me.
It's just my opinion nothing more. If everyone were to agree to just feel the love and stop all the crap I would be the happiest man in the world. [-o<
I have enough cards to stack them all up, and commit suicide off the top!

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mystical_tutor
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Post by mystical_tutor » Sat Jun 15, 2013 6:19 pm

hammr7 wrote:I would also like to note that most of the time theft is not a violent crime. Any decent Magic player should know that stealth and deception are much better tools than brute force. For a successful heist, it is 100 times more effective to get the valuables without being seen. Guns are useless to protect your collection when you are in a convention hall and your collection is being removed from your parked car.

When it comes to non-violent theft, Europe is easily on the same level as the US. On my first trip to Madrid I helped stop a thief at the main train station. On my last trip to Rome I got to see the gypsy kids and their pickpocket games in action. In Milan my friend had 4 different alarm systems on his luxury car, and it still was stolen. In France, Germany and Holland the nuances were different, and often not as obvious, but if you were careless or distracted you could easily be separated from valuables.

And my European friends had similar problems when they came to the US. They were perfectly prepared for the kinds of thefts they experienced at home, but struggled until they realized the rules were a bit different in the States. Like the fact that secure sides of airports aren't necessarily that secure.
When I stop to think about it, this is a very valid point. The problems that happened at the big events with stuff getting swiped (like right out from under people's chairs) was all non-violent--at least what I heard about.

The other application of the principle is that using information security can help a lot, not with hotel rooms or cars per se, but flashing binders of P9 or pimp decks can make you a prime target.

You really got to be careful of who you leave in your bed when you charge out to an early event---she might not be asleep.

Gary
Gary Adkison
Father of a former Wizards of the Coast janitor.

Knowledge is proud because it thinks it knows so much; wisdom is humble because it realizes it knows so little.

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