Graded Beta Lotus $49000

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ende73
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Graded Beta Lotus $49000

Post by ende73 » Mon Jul 10, 2006 2:07 pm

I'd like to hear comments on this:

http://cgi.ebay.com/Magic-MTG-BETA-BLAC ... dZViewItem

Imho it's far beyond crazy, but it might make an interesting debate.

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pickle.69
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Post by pickle.69 » Mon Jul 10, 2006 2:35 pm

Well I saw it the day they listed it.
I personaly don't have any experiance with BGS but I have been informing myself about this company and what i found out is that they tend to be much strickter then Psa.
Perosonaly I think the price of this card actually could be set as wanted, due to it realy beeing the only one graded as high.

This is a high end collectable and if it was alpha, I think it would find a buyer soon. With Beta having more cards and people at the time then beeing more carfully I think beta top graded cards are only woth 40-60% of alphas.
I think the value of this lotus could be set arround 20-25K.
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ende73
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Post by ende73 » Mon Jul 10, 2006 2:53 pm

pickle.69 wrote:Well I saw it the day they listed it.
I personaly don't have any experiance with BGS but I have been informing myself about this company and what i found out is that they tend to be much strickter then Psa.
Perosonaly I think the price of this card actually could be set as wanted, due to it realy beeing the only one graded as high.

This is a high end collectable and if it was alpha, I think it would find a buyer soon. With Beta having more cards and people at the time then beeing more carfully I think beta top graded cards are only woth 40-60% of alphas.
I think the value of this lotus could be set arround 20-25K.
I can certainly agree with everything you said, and I also think $20K is more realistic.

The fact is that some sealed Beta product still exists (T&T has boxes up for sale at $16K each), so any single card sold must bear some relationship with prices of sealed product too.

In other words, you can statistically get a Gem Lotus for $48K by buying three boxes from T&T and opening them, plus you'd get Gem something else too (probably about 10 $1000+ and 100 $100+ cards) ! That is unless you're unlucky enough to pull that Lotus in crimped or off-centered condition :'-(

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Post by l0qii » Mon Jul 10, 2006 3:20 pm

I definately think this card is overpriced, but being the only one of its kind the seller can set any price they want. The fact that it has been up for so long is proof enough that it's not worth the price. I do think $20-$25k is more reasonable, assuming there are Beta collectors out there who have not yet sunk all their money into a PSA 10. This seller usually has far more reasonable prices for other graded cards, so I suspect this posting may just be for show, and they are not seriously interested in selling it, except for an offer they can't refuse.

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Post by hammr7 » Mon Jul 10, 2006 3:53 pm

Becketts, in my sports card experience, is much more consistant with their grading, and is much less likely to overgrade, since they use half point increments and subgrades.

Pricing on this card will help determine the lunatic fringe for Magic cards. Whether its coins, sports cards, or Magic cards, the highest priced items are purchased for only one of two reasons.

One is investment potential, and this is often driven by speculators. They tend to buy on momentum (if pricing are rising they go along for the ride). Many collectible markets ultimately become understandable to the point where they become mainstream investments. Fine Art and high grade US coins are examples.

The other is industry insiders. They might be ultra-rich collectors wanting the unattainable "best", or they might be dealers looking to reinvest profits or gain a key PR item. In fact, the seller might be purposely pricing the card beyond the market for the bragging rights it implies. Its a cheap way to draw attention to your business. (how much does it cost in eBay fees for an auction that never sells?)

Having said that, if I were the seller I would have found a way to cleanup the slab before photographing it. If I wanted to brag about an incredible card I'd certainly want it to look its best.

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Post by Dilligaf » Mon Jul 10, 2006 9:36 pm

reading the desc, it appears to be the same one that Beckett auction'd off in thier first issue.

i believe it sold for about $29k. i'd have to go back and dig out the issue to be 100% sure, but it sounds right.
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Post by phiswiz » Tue Jul 11, 2006 12:33 am

I though they said it went for $10k, I could be wrong though.

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dry cereal
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Post by dry cereal » Tue Jul 11, 2006 2:14 am

so would you say obsessive compulsive disorder drives the MTG market?

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Post by hammr7 » Tue Jul 11, 2006 3:01 am

dry cereal wrote:so would you say obsessive compulsive disorder drives the MTG market?
Certainly the high end!

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Post by timebeing » Wed Jul 12, 2006 10:53 pm

BGS is a much harder grader. and a 10 tends to be unheard of in most cases for BGS. 9.5 being hard enough to get. and even 9s not that easy. A lot of people would say that its harder to get a BGS9.5 then a PSA10. And for a lot of cards a BGS 9.5 tend to price higher then PSA10s. Gives you an idea what a BGS 10 could do.

BGS 10 Sports card
http://cgi.ebay.com/1984-Topps-Dan-Mari ... dZViewItem

PSA 10 card
http://cgi.ebay.com/1984-TOPPS-123-DAN- ... dZViewItem

also noted only 2 Beta lotuses have been submitted
http://www.beckett.com/grading/poprepor ... id=3733682


The one thing with magic cards is they are much more sturdy then Sports cards. They come out of packs cleaner and tend not to have pack damage. They also don't have crazy shapes/cuts/foiling/embossing ect that new baseball cards can have, so i tend to think Magic cards will grade higher on average the sports cards. thus maybe don't deserve as high of a preimium price.

As for the price its a little high i think. but don't think that if you buy X boxs of Beta and pop a Black lotus you have a chance in hell of it being a BGS 10. even pack fresh its likely only to grade as a 9.5 if not a 9. 10 really Rare for BGS. unlike PSA.

One other note. in Comic books and sports cards, there is a subset of "rich" collectors who strive to have the highest graded "run" of comics or "set" of cards. Mostly older stuff. If that market shows up for Magic cards, then this one would be the must have for the beta set, and could drive the price up.

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dry cereal
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Post by dry cereal » Thu Jul 13, 2006 4:12 am

I've heard that a BGS 10 is just as much an anomoly as any misprint. Would you say a BGS 10 more rare than a crimp?

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Post by random » Thu Jul 13, 2006 9:31 pm

I think Beckett looks nice but PSA is no worse a grader than BGS.

PSA is older and has a much larger population of graded cards than BGS. This explains why there will be fewer higher and lower graded cards from BGS. Beckett has an MTG publication which "shills" it's own graded cards.
Beckett used to claim (before Dr Beckett sold), it would "never" get into the grading business as it would conflict with pricing cards. The Beckett mags have sold a lot less since the internet came around and BGS was born to increase revenues. BGS HAS THE "10" CARD. It's just a gimmick. It means that there will be fewer of those "10" cards but how many cards will they grade lower because they can only label very few (1-2) of them?
Then who will get the "10" rating? People who send them 1000's of cards or someone who sends in a few? That's why PSA doesn't have the 9.5 split. The same applies to quantity though. Also a lot of people will re submit a card over and over again to both companies for a btter grade than before. Anybody who claims one is worse than the other (or has their cards graded) should research both companies. I think it's a big scam either way but Beckett saw how much money PSA was making off the concept ...
I personally think it's foolish to pay so much to slab cards in general by either company. It's kind of like the Hitler and Stalin thing. They both suck!

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Post by timebeing » Fri Jul 14, 2006 12:05 am

random wrote:I think Beckett looks nice but PSA is no worse a grader than BGS.

PSA is older and has a much larger population of graded cards than BGS. This explains why there will be fewer higher and lower graded cards from BGS. Beckett has an MTG publication which "shills" it's own graded cards.
Beckett used to claim (before Dr Beckett sold), it would "never" get into the grading business as it would conflict with pricing cards. The Beckett mags have sold a lot less since the internet came around and BGS was born to increase revenues. BGS HAS THE "10" CARD. It's just a gimmick. It means that there will be fewer of those "10" cards but how many cards will they grade lower because they can only label very few (1-2) of them?
Then who will get the "10" rating? People who send them 1000's of cards or someone who sends in a few? That's why PSA doesn't have the 9.5 split. The same applies to quantity though. Also a lot of people will re submit a card over and over again to both companies for a btter grade than before. Anybody who claims one is worse than the other (or has their cards graded) should research both companies. I think it's a big scam either way but Beckett saw how much money PSA was making off the concept ...
I personally think it's foolish to pay so much to slab cards in general by either company. It's kind of like the Hitler and Stalin thing. They both suck!
True True, but most people seem to feel that BGS is more honest and fair. Not sure why but that is the perception in mass. Now yes BGS has not been grading as long as PSA, and been grading Magic even shorter, but in sports cards they are seen as a batter grader. People send to PSA knowing that they are more likely to get a better grade, thus making people discredit PSA grades. Same with all the other graders out there, they are preceved as less honest, thus their high graded cards are valued lower. For some reason grading adds value to cards, and people pay that value. BGS tends to add more value to a card then PSA. There 10s are rarer. I don’t think many price guides are very accurate, other then maybe MTOL since its just scans and averages. Hell an old store owner I knew use to report to Scrye. He turned to me and asked me once “what you think Exalted angel is worthâ€￾ he continued to report to them even after he sold his store.

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Post by random » Fri Jul 14, 2006 3:07 am

I guess I'm biased cause I think it's a dumb idea. I suppose that it's good for anybody making a killing off of selling graded cards or doing the grading though.
I got some PSA 10's, Beta stuff. Cards look great but not really any better than some stuff I've got put away...

I think it's a fad type of thing. No offense to anybody else who does it, but it doesn't seem to bode well for PSA and BGS (and the others) with how much time the supporters of those companies spend flaming each other. It's pretty bad on the sports card sites...
Inevitably, the reputations of all involved will go down because fake cards will be, (have been) slabbed by those companies.
Of course there are the morons who claim one company slabs fake cards but "his" grader hasn't... It just seems like a major scam aginst the whole collecting community.
Sorry for my grammar... in a rush :-)

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Post by random » Fri Jul 14, 2006 3:20 am

I think it's nuts by the way! I'd rather buy some sealed Beta product and take my chances getting a Gem Lotus that way:-)

Sorry about my rant!

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