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Tha_Gunslinga
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Post by Tha_Gunslinga » Thu Sep 14, 2006 5:26 am

In Spanish:
"hielo" means ice
"invierno" means winter
"infierno" means hell
Last edited by Tha_Gunslinga on Thu Sep 14, 2006 5:41 am, edited 1 time in total.

NightBeing
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Post by NightBeing » Thu Sep 14, 2006 5:40 am

coolio wrote:
NightBeing wrote:
coolio wrote:a cold day in hell before ...
Just a nitpick, because it's one of the subjects which never stop to amuse me :) You know that both "Hell" and "inferno" originally mean freezing cold, do you? :)
source?
Er, um... Etymology? Word "Hell" is a name of rather unpleasant place in afterworld reserved for bad people in Nordic mythology, named after it's ruler, Hela. One of the two coldest of all nine realms.

And inferno is derived from root which originally had the meanings "lower" and "winter", which meaning it still retains in most roman languages (e.g., Spanish "invierno"). Dunno where it came to Latin from, where it also came to mean the underworld. Roman mythology inherited the Greek Hades, a place where shadows (aka souls) go after death, and which is generally a dull cold place (though not as cold as Nords had it, but then I doubt Greeks saw much snow even back then ;) "Hades" also relates closely to winter, but more as hibernation than as cold.

The "modern" concept of Hell came from Judaism (Gehenna), and they have it as a really HOT place. No wonder, given all the fiery demons the desert they live among brought to that mythology. Picked up by Christianity, it just caught all the words for underworld from the places which were baptised.
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coolio
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Post by coolio » Thu Sep 14, 2006 5:45 am

Tha_Gunslinga wrote:Spanish:
"hielo" means ice
"infierno" means winter
appreciate where ppl get the misconception, but based on dictionary.reference.com, hell comes from old english, and infernal comes from latin.. neither of which means what was defined up there, nor what NightBeing imply they mean.. just because they mean something in another language, doesnt mean much, the source of the words can be traced pretty far back..

http://dictionary.reference.com/search?q=hell

Word History: Hell comes to us directly from Old English hel. Because the Roman Church prevailed in England from an early date, the Romanthat is, Mediterraneanbelief that hell was hot prevailed there too; in Old English hel is a black and fiery place of eternal torment for the damned.

i presume you imply source of the word meaning cold as to the next few lines...

But because the Vikings were converted to Christianity centuries after the Anglo-Saxons, the Old Norse hel, from the same source as Old English hel, retained its earlier pagan senses as both a place and a person. As a place, hel is the abode of oathbreakers, other evil persons, and those unlucky enough not to have died in battle. It contrasts sharply with Valhalla, the hall of slain heroes. Unlike the Mediterranean hell, the Old Norse hel is very cold.

http://dictionary.reference.com/search?q=infernal

[Middle English, from Old French, from Late Latin nfernlis, from nfernus, hell, from Latin, lower, underground. See dher- in Indo-European Roots.]

NightBeing
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Post by NightBeing » Thu Sep 14, 2006 5:49 am

Well, my paper sources disagree, especially on the topics of when German root "hel" came to Enlish and when Christian concept came there; and in that some of these are "different languages". You know that modern Spanish is almost pure Latin?
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coolio
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Post by coolio » Thu Sep 14, 2006 5:57 am

NightBeing wrote:Well, my paper sources disagree, especially on the topics of when German root "hel" came to Enlish and when Christian concept came there; and in that some of these are "different languages". You know that modern Spanish is almost pure Latin?
I'd seriously like your sources on modern spanish almost being pure latin, took latin in HS, cant understand a sentence in spanish, written or spoken..

inferno/infernal is the same in spanish, as it implies in english, hell/hellish.. get over it.. even google translate translates infernal as.. infernal.. infierno is hell.. invierno is winter.. might want to get yer spellings correct first..

NightBeing
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Post by NightBeing » Thu Sep 14, 2006 6:12 am

coolio wrote:
NightBeing wrote:Well, my paper sources disagree, especially on the topics of when German root "hel" came to Enlish and when Christian concept came there; and in that some of these are "different languages". You know that modern Spanish is almost pure Latin?
I'd seriously like your sources on modern spanish almost being pure latin, took latin in HS, cant understand a sentence in spanish, written or spoken..

inferno/infernal is the same in spanish, as it implies in english, hell/hellish.. get over it.. even google translate translates infernal as.. infernal.. infierno is hell.. invierno is winter.. might want to get yer spellings correct first..
Took comparative linguistics, comparative religion and Latin, didn't take Spanish, can easily enough read it. Much closer to Latin than modern Italian, at least.

And well, I don't doubt that any online translation service translates using *modern* meanings of the words, nor do I argue that *now* they mean what they mean. Only that back a few centuries, both words meant a cold place, not hot.
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coolio
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Post by coolio » Thu Sep 14, 2006 6:19 am

NightBeing wrote:
coolio wrote:
NightBeing wrote:Well, my paper sources disagree, especially on the topics of when German root "hel" came to Enlish and when Christian concept came there; and in that some of these are "different languages". You know that modern Spanish is almost pure Latin?
I'd seriously like your sources on modern spanish almost being pure latin, took latin in HS, cant understand a sentence in spanish, written or spoken..

inferno/infernal is the same in spanish, as it implies in english, hell/hellish.. get over it.. even google translate translates infernal as.. infernal.. infierno is hell.. invierno is winter.. might want to get yer spellings correct first..
Took comparative linguistics, comparative religion and Latin, didn't take Spanish, can easily enough read it. Much closer to Latin than modern Italian, at least.

And well, I don't doubt that any online translation service translates using *modern* meanings of the words, nor do I argue that *now* they mean what they mean. Only that back a few centuries, both words meant a cold place, not hot.
sure, comparative linguistics, and latin.. you SHOULD be able to read easily enough of ANY romance language, back a few centuries? hades's underworld, never implied cold.. dull, yes, tortorous, yes.. but you fergot, everyone went to his place.. the underworld.. separated were Tartarus and Elysium, so there is no implication of cold

as for hell, depending where you looked @ origin of the word.. and i'm sure old english is old enuff to qualify as a few centuries, and even then, under christian definition, it was a hot place, if you go with the norse, it'd be longer than "a few centuries" when hel meant cold

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Post by Gryfalia » Thu Sep 14, 2006 4:02 pm

From what I read, both the Old English and the Old Norse 'hel' come from the same source, really old Indo-European '-kel'. That's 'concealed place', which at a base level makes sense.

The Norse vision of the 'bad afterlife' place was cold. The Mediterranean (and be extension, generally 'christian') understanding of the 'bad afterlife' was hot. One word gained two different meanings due to cultural influences. But from the resources I find, neither is 'right' and neither certainly was 'the original meaning'.

I suppose the challenge comes in comparing the 'idea' to the 'word'. And in the insane Chicken and Egg juggling of linguistics, that's where the fights come from.

I'm having a hard time finding, tho, that the Norse 'Hel' was before Old English/Teutonic 'hel'. Sounds like random convergence of an idea with a word, with a little theft thrown in...;-)

Rainsford
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Post by Rainsford » Thu Sep 14, 2006 5:01 pm

Okay, so I did a quick Wikipedia review fo the word Hell. And since we all know the Wiki is definitive... (pause for laughter) Here is the link and some excerpts:

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Hell

The opening information:

"Hell, according to many religious beliefs, is a place or a state of pain and suffering. The English word "hell" comes from the Teutonic "hel", which originally meant "to cover". "Hel" later referred to the goddess of the Norse underworld, Hel. Compare Anglo-Saxon helan, Greek kalyptein and Latin celare="to hide, to cover" (all from PIE *kel-)."

Referencing both hot and cold parts of Hell:

"Another example of common use of 'hell' in daily language, a Cold Day in Hell is a paradox and an idiom, since most imagery of hell depicts it as hot and fiery, such as in the Bible in Revelation, where sinners are cast into a lake of fire. Therefore, an event that will transpire "on a cold day in hell" will never occur..."

"Interestingly, Cocytus, the bottom circle of Hell, which held traitors, in Dante's Divine Comedy, is depicted as an ice-covered lake."

Best regards,

Rainsford

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