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Windseeker

eBay

Post by Windseeker » Thu May 26, 2005 4:24 am

Like most of you here, I buy and sell cards on eBay.  I’m primarily a buyer and as such, I seem to go through cycles during which I am either extremely happy with my auction results or extremely disappointed.  There are two issues with eBay that continually frustrates me and leads to disappointment.  They are: 1) Misrepresented card quality and 2) Feedback.

I’ve read enough posts here that lead me to believe I’m not the strictest card grader in the world, though my definitions for MINT and NEAR MINT are tighter than Scrye’s.  When I read a card’s grade on eBay, I ASSUME that the seller is going by some universal grading standard (Scrye) and that I can reasonably expect the card to fall nicely into the listed category.  Unfortunately, all too often this is not the case.  I repeatedly receive cards that have scratching, wear spots and even slight bends that were listed as M/NM.  I ALWAYS contact the seller, inform them of the issue and either ask for a full refund or a discount.  Sometimes they comply, but often they don’t.  The sellers that don’t offer the refund/discount typically are the ones that also don’t leave feedback until AFTER I’ve left feedback for them.  This leads me to my next issue:  Feedback.

When it comes to feedback, I’m a firm believer that it’s the seller’s obligation to leave feedback first.  Once I, as the buyer, have paid for the auction, I feel my part in the auction has been completed and as such, should receive feedback based on my promptness and compliance with the seller’s method of payment.  Unfortunately it seems I’m in the minority on this one.

The reason I’m posting this is because I’m interested to hear the opinions of others, learn how they deal with misgraded cards and how they view buyer/seller responsibilities in regards to feedback.  Thanks!

Jon

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Re: eBay

Post by rick21n » Thu May 26, 2005 4:39 am

I agree with most of what you said.  I tend to get dissappointed sometimes with lax grading.  This is why I try not to buy anything too important on eBay.

Feedback is a whole different issue that I get frustrated with sellers not leaving feedback until after the buyer leaves feedback.  I agree that this is exactly backward of what should occur, and that after payment is received that the seller should leave appropriate feedback.  If the seller then needs to respond to feedback they have that option (though most don't know how).  I can only hope that eBay makes it so that the seller has to leave feedback first, but I doubt it to ever happen.

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Re: eBay

Post by silver.paladin » Thu May 26, 2005 5:08 am

I agree with a lot you say Windseeker, however, I am also of the belief that the grading of cards is a purely subjective manner.  Just because you consider your grading of NM/M to be stricter than Scryes, does not mean that another will grade as tightly.  A lot of things in the world, including Ebay, is buyer beware.
And as a truely dedicated buyer, if you demand a purely certain quality for card, you should also be demanding pictures or scans or an item before you even bid on it. If you are bidding on something, sight unseen, then you are buying whatever it is that the seller is auctioning.

Personally, as a buyer of good and bad deals, my opinion is that if you do not like what you have bought, it is your own fault - unless (a) you have first sought significant pictures(proof) of what you are buying or (b) if the seller has sold something other than what they have presented, then the seller has committed fraud.

So, just like a slot machine, you pay your quarter, and you take a chance.

For myself, I am more concerned about the feedback system, like Rick21n is.  Once a seller has received a payment and sent the item, their end of the transaction is effectively finished (barring any problems), and as such, they should be leaving feedback at that point in time, rather than leaving feedback, if and only if the buyer leaves feedback. However, this is also a catch-22, because if a buyer is unsatisfied for any reason (even unsatisfied because the buyer's opinion of Mint is more severe than the seller's), then the seller could just go ahead and leave negative feedback, rather than trying to resolve the dispute.  This is unfair to sellers, and is a problem with the whole feedback situation.
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Re: eBay

Post by misterpid » Thu May 26, 2005 5:38 am

Once a seller has received a payment and sent the item, their end of the transaction is effectively finished (barring any problems)

The important part of this quote is "barring any problems."  The seller doesn't know if there are going to be problems.  A transaction isn't over for either party until the buyer has the item and both parties are satisfied with everything.

This topic has come up before, and  as I stated at that time:
Just because a person has paid for an item, doesn't mean that the transaction is over.  Feedback really should never be left for someone until both parties are satisfied that the transaction as complete as possible.

I know quite a few eBay sellers who have been burned by buyers that have come up with false claims about the items after they were received.  The buyers ended up getting refunded and/or returning different, lesser quality copies of the item that was sold due to these false claims.  The sellers had already left positive feedback, and wished that they hadn't.  Because of this, they now wait until they know that the buyer has no more questions or issues coincerning their items before leaving feedback.    Many times, the buyer leaving feedback is the only way that a seller knows that the buyer is satisfied with an item.
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Re: eBay

Post by Gryfalia » Thu May 26, 2005 8:40 am

I don't leave feedback for my buyers until I am sure they are happy with the transaction.  If they aren't, I then fix the problem (assuming it's actually a problem).  My one negative feedback was a total moron who was, apparently, simply stupid..;-)

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Re: eBay

Post by Celebrindor » Thu May 26, 2005 9:07 am

I don't leave feedback for my buyers until I am sure they are happy with the transaction.  If they aren't, I then fix the problem (assuming it's actually a problem).  My one negative feedback was a total moron who was, apparently, simply stupid..;-)

Gryfalia
Same here.  My one negative feedback (which was later mutually removed) was from a buyer who claimed to never get an item (not only did I send it to him, but I refunded him his money about an hour before the feedback was given).  

As a seller, if I leave feedback first, the buyer can then claim to not get the item, or claim there is something wrong with the item, and threaten me with the possibility of negative feedback.  Since I have already left a positive for them, I must then either take a negative, and be left with no way to affect their rating, or give them their money back undeserved.  Furthermore, the transaction is NOT complete after I have been paid and ship the item.  If there is a problem with shipping the seller is responsible.  After all, unless there is tracking (which is not necessarily scam-proof, by the way), there is no way for the buyer to differentiate between a postal problem and someone not sending their item.  Thus, having the buyer leave feedback first lets the seller know that the buyer has received the item, and this seems reasonable.  

Furthermore, many people just suck.  My feedback is between 50 and 100 lower than it should because of lazy jerks who don't leave feedback.  When I buy things, sometimes the seller leaves feedback first, sometimes they do not.  Once I receive an item, I always leave feedback promptly, in the hope that the seller will then do the say.  When I sell something, I include a short note to the effect of 'contact me if you have any problems, if you don't, leave me feedback to let me know you got it, and I will do the same'.  Thus, buyers know that they will not receive feedback until they leave it, they are encouraged to leave it promptly.  Furthermore, since they know I only leave feedback after they do, it discourages them from trying to scam me (see above).  As a buyer, I speculate that many sellers think like me, so I have no problem leaving feedback first, and hoping that I will then recieve it.

Please excuse any spelling or grammar errors in this post.  Its after midnight, and I am VERY tired.

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Re: eBay

Post by hammr7 » Thu May 26, 2005 4:42 pm

I agree with much of what has been said above.  I am primarily a buyer, and grading is much more of a problem than feedback as far as I am concerned.  

I tend to disagree with silver palladin's assertion that grading is subjective.  While perfectionists (like mintcollector) can put additional stipulations to their grading requirements, normal people need to have some minimum standards, especially when it comes to high grade cards.  Its not like there aren't enough possible references.  And words like "unplayed", "pack fresh", "perfect" and "mint" aren't all that ambiguous.  If you make these claims about a card, it had better meet some standards (such as having some luster, not having heavy stains and scratches, and not having extensive play wear).

I have even developed a methodology to my feedback, depending upon how "different" the seller's grading was compared to accepted norms.  It helps me when I see new auctions from someone I dealt with before.

If the cards are better than described, or are near perfect, I'll give a "great" item feedback.

If the cards are approximately what they should be, I give a "good" item feedback.

If the cards are below my expectation, but not by a lot, then I'll give an "ok" item feedback.

These are only my acceptable feedback options.  If the cards are cheap, but obviously well below grade, I will complain to the seller.  If the cards aren't worth returning (like some infamous Alpha commons I got a few months ago) I will not leave feedback unless the seller is a real jerk.  That seller will go into a list of people I stop doing business with.

If the cards are more expensive, I have no problem with threatening a negative feedback unless I get a refund.  And I will leave negative feedback if necessary.  If you are afraid to do so, eBay won't work at all.  Since you can never leave all the details in the feedback, I usually leave an "email me for details" offer in the feedback, since I can then update other potential buyers, especially if the seller tries to be vindictive.

As an example, I recently bought two "mint" raging rivers from a seller with a feedback of about 200.  The Unlimited card was probably Near Mint, as it had seen some play and had light wear.  While it wasn't what I hoped for, at least it wasn't horrible.  The Alpha card, however, was horrible.  It had been played quite a bit, but someone had touched up the card edges.  You can see the different shades of black when you hold the card at an angle.  The retouching was so extensive that they colored over the white corner dots on the front of the card.

I've e-mailed the seller, but so far have had no response.  If I don't get a response, I will eventually leave a negative feedback.  If the seller tries to sell more items, then the negative will come soon.  If he stops selling for a while, I'll leave the negative after 89 or 90 days (to lessen his chances for retaliation).
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Re: eBay

Post by Celebrindor » Thu May 26, 2005 7:29 pm

hammr7:  this is the main problem with the feedback system that I couldn't seem to express in twice as many words:  you did everything correctly, and deserve a positive, while the seller sold below-grade cards and deserves a negative.  However, the system allows for him to retaliate against a well-deserved negative by giving an undeserved negative to you.  I have no idea what to do about this, but the current system does leave something to be desired.

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Re: eBay

Post by ende73 » Thu May 26, 2005 8:36 pm

hammr7:  this is the main problem with the feedback system that I couldn't seem to express in twice as many words:  you did everything correctly, and deserve a positive, while the seller sold below-grade cards and deserves a negative.  However, the system allows for him to retaliate against a well-deserved negative by giving an undeserved negative to you.  I have no idea what to do about this, but the current system does leave something to be desired.
I second that completely.

This is the major defect of Ebay's feedback system in my opinion.

What makes it worse is that they won't even listen to you if you ask them to remove a vindicative feedback, like the only negative I got in response to a well-deserved neutral I had left.

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Vindicative feedback... Ebay's real problem  [smiley=dissappointed.gif]
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Re: eBay

Post by mintcollector » Thu May 26, 2005 9:13 pm

I have been hesitant to respond on this.  I have abhorred the idea that sellers lord their feedback over a buyer, with the full chance to retaliate.  Also many sellers overgrade their cards.  Especially for someone like me who will find the smallest of wear/damage flaws unacceptable, eBay has been an area of concern for me.  I was "fortunate" to have gotten most of my cards prior to eBay growing to the monstrosity it is today.  A word of advice I'll give to most other collectors.  Deal with dealers.  The reason I say this is because when I used to deal with dealers almost exclusively, I would always contact them off to the side, either by email or by phone, instead of using their online shopping carts.  I would explain to them what I was looking for (pack-mint cards with no wear or damage whatsoever).  I also asked them to personally inspect the cards again to see if they do indeed fit my needs.  As a failsafe, I also added in the sales disclaimer that if I am unsatisfied with the condition of the card(s), I would be able to return them for a full refund.  You will be surprised at how many dealers will perform this service and add this guarantee....for free.  This is how I finished the bulk of my collection and also made a nice trade circle of dealer friends.  Also many dealers asked me for my needs list and scoured their areas looking for cards that met my condition requirements.  I know this got a bit off-topic, but I felt there is an underlying conern about collecting standards here I thought this as relevant.

Now back on topic.  I have had my share of horror stories with online market places (Ebay, OneWebPlace, Yahoo, etc).  I remember bidding on a mint Unlimited Smoke, only to receive a mint Revised one.  My 'mint' Beta Control Magic arrived with severe whitening on all four sides, making it an EX- at best.  An Alpha Ankh of Mishra arrived, signed by Amy Weber (I can't stand signed cards and deem them non-mint).  I always cared about my feedback more than a card of small value.  I did not want to be a martyr and start a personal crusade against grading standards.  I just sucked up my losses and resold/traded substandard cards locally.  This is why my feedback was low in comparison as I dealt mainly outside of eBay.  I have little real eBay advice to add as the system that exists today sucks and there is not much you can do about it.  I can only recomend this:  learn who is good at grading and who is not.  Maybe as another thread on this site, someone can keep a running list of both good and bad graders.  For example, CollectMart is a good grader.  Strike Zone Online is a horrible grader (I will no longer buy my missing set cards from him, although his prices are great if I need play sets).  These are dealer examples.  eBay will have countless grading levels and opinions on those who look at them.  I also disagree with the statement that grading is not subjective.  It is.  If it isn't we all would be grading the same, but we don't  Why do I grade harder than others looking for a pack-mint card?  Are my standards different than others.  Most of you might say yes.  Then this just proves that grading standards do vary.  Mint is defined as perfect in every way.  Pack-mint means press-fresh...meaning print flaws are acceptable to a point (no misprints, horrible cuts, etc).  There should be no wear, dings, or damage on a pack-mint card.  Unplayed is a very subjective word.  Unplayed means that the seller has not played the card, but it does not mean it has not really been played before.  I religiously use sleeves and a playmat.  At the end of a pre-release  I can go through cards I played with and find those that look as they just came out of the pack.  This means that my cards would still look pack-mint, although I cannot say they are unplayed.  one can only hope (and cross their fingers), that a card listed as mint, pack-mint, or unplayed arrives in conditions they will accept.  I only use feedback as a gauge if the items are shipped, are shipped a timely manner if time is of concern, and how a seller handles problems.  For example I recently bought some cards from a seller in the Phillipines, and with very good feedback.  I was unlucky enough to have the items lost in the mail.  The seller was really cool about things and offered me a full refund and sucked up the loss himself.  IMO, I felt this admirable and left him positive feedback stating he refunded full money after cards were lost in the mail.  You see a seller like that cared about his feedback enough to rectify the situation.  Would I deal with this guy again, heck yeah.  So I also read on a seller's history on how they handled problems that arose.  I think a fair deal is always splitting the loss between seller and buyer.  Lost items are out of each others control.  

In closing, grading standards do differ and if you are willing to take a risk on eBay, I strongly suggest taking my advice in the first part and deal with dealers, as they will care about their rep for the most part as they see any opportunity to deal with a high end collector as a long road of benefits.  Not only do they hope for repeat business, but simple word of mouth can aid or destroy dealers.  A good dealer will provide good service.  You just need to ask for it  and learn from good and bad experiences.  Use eBay, and you risk condition and all the problems associated with Joe Blow seller and possible feedback wars.  The risk is yours to take.

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Re: eBay

Post by hammr7 » Thu May 26, 2005 10:37 pm

I think there needs to be one clarification.  I didn't mean to imply that there is no subjectivity at all when in comes to grading.  However, I would argue that much of that subjectivity relates to what quality of card an individual is willing to take, rather than excessive ambiguity in what grade a card is.  A player is often willing to take a "lower" grade card, since his need is for the card's functionality.  Conversely, what a seller is willing to take depends upon price, rarity, and presentation.  Many collectors want first to fill sets, then worry about upgrading quality of cards in each.

The issue of grading is often irrelevant when transactions occur face-to-face.  You get to see the card.  If its condition is acceptable to your needs, then you can discuss price.  It is long distance transactions that require some consitancy in grading.  

If a card is ripped in two, no one would argue that a seller shouldn't disclose this.  If it has been defaced, or signed, that should be disclosed as well.  Different descriptors can be used in either case, but a true message of the card's real condition must be given.  This expectation is a part of consumer law, but violators bank on the effort being too great for the reward.

While a bit more nebulous, descriptors of common "grades" (mint, very fine, poor, etc.) need to have some common meaning.  There might be 10 varying interpretations of the word "mint", but any applied to a well used card are deceptive.

I try to keep sellers honest.  I ask for a copy of their grading scale, or warn them ahead of time of my grading expectations.  In fact, I ask them to cancel my bid if their grading doesn't meet or exceed industy norms.   You will get some variation on eBay (hence my great, good, and ok scale on feedback).  But there is also a sizable minority that are outright frauds when it comes to grading.  
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Re: eBay

Post by Celebrindor » Fri May 27, 2005 2:00 am

mintcollector:  you are absolutely right about dealing with dealers.  I recently bought several hundred dollars worth of Alpha cards from magicsingles.com aka Academy Games at PT Philly.  I ended up with about 200 cards, after spending about 4 hours examining each card individually.  They are absolutely beautiful, having come from a large collection that was purchased.  

A bit off topic, but I obtained an amazing condition Alpha Serra Angel that day.  It has no nicks, dings, or scratches, and is not bent.  The top black border is slightly larger than the bottom one, maybe 55-45, but not enough to bother me (ok, ok, it bothers me a lot, but it'll be a while before I have the money to be able to be that picky).  The problem I always have with Alpha cards is that they are notorious for having been cut poorly - in other words, the corners often look like they have been damaged, while they have not been, and I cannot tell sometimes what is normal and what is not.

Anyway, back on topic.  For sheerly financial reasons I buy most cards for my sets from eBay - dealers charge way more than eBay prices, and more often than not, the cards arrive as described.  The problem with eBay is that grading IS subjective.  At the point where you or I draw the line between Mint and NM, many people can't tell the difference, or still think of the card as mint.  If a card is off-center enough to bother me, it may not be off-center enough for the person grading it to notice, or care.  A possible solution is for eBay to specify a grading scale, where each possible problem with a card would count towards the cards overall grade, much like the scales set out in the various publications, and by the various groups that grade cards.  As it is now though, people truly do have different opinions of where one grade ends and another begins, and what attributes count.  However, even if eBay were to attempt to make a unified scale, it would be utterly impossible to enforce.  

In reference to you comment about Strike Zone, I completely agree.  I sold cards TO them, and several were returned for not being in good enough shape (though they were), and several others in worse shape were accepted.

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Re: eBay

Post by TerraFrost » Fri May 27, 2005 2:06 am

Here's a possible solution to the feedback problem...

Make it so that one can't see whom a feedback is from unless both parties invovled have left feedback.  Alternatively, one could make it so that not even the feedback itself is visible until both parties have left feedback.

Anyway, this would (to an extenct) make it so that people could leave honest feedback without fear of retailiatory feedback.  Granted, other problems could arise from this, such as artificially deflated feedback, but...  as others have pointed out, there are problems with the system as it is currently set up, too.
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Re: eBay

Post by AXIOS » Fri May 27, 2005 2:43 am

about strikezoneonline.
i recently acquired 2 summer forests from them, auction stated exc- for both (that's why i got them relatively cheap), when they arrived, they were both in absolute pristine condition, no flaw whatever, perfectly centered etc. er.c
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Re: eBay

Post by mintcollector » Fri May 27, 2005 7:47 am

about strikezoneonline.
i recently acquired 2 summer forests from them, auction stated exc- for both (that's why i got them relatively cheap), when they arrived, they were both in absolute pristine condition, no flaw whatever, perfectly centered etc. er.c
I am just stating cards they sell as 'mint'are not close.

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