Opinions on MOTL

[Jazaray]

I'm a Moderator on MOTL.  It's been my home on the internet for more than a year now.  As Slinga said, if you're careful, you can accumulate a lot of refs, and make a bunch of great friends.   Also as Slinga said, if you break the rules too often, you do get banned.  I had NEVER gotten a Karma warning before I became a Mod.  NEVER, in more than a year of posting and trading on MOTL.   It is not hard at all, to follow MOTL's simple rules.

Flatmatt:  We do give warnings.  They come in your email inbox from Support@magictraders.com    If your friend was banned without warning, he/she either did something bad enough to get banned in one shot, has the wrong email down, or has some sort of filter on it, that deleted the warning email/s.  

bigfatkitty:  Was that your username on MOTL?  I find nothing in your Karma history.  I will look into this matter, and I will personally bring it to Leshrac's and Inca's attention.

Erl00:  You get emails when you are warned.  You never know when you get positive Karma (unless you ask a Mod, and they are kind enough to tell you what your Karma is at).  

Bas: You were banned for a REASON.  Get that through your head.  There WAS a reason.  Just because you don't LIKE the reason, doesn't make it non-existant.

Dry_Cereal: *shakes head*.... not the brightest bulb on the tree, are you?

To All:  MOTL is undergoing changes.  Changes in rules and how they are presented.  Changes in cleaning up the amount of "trolling" in the discussion forums.  Changes everywhere.   MOTL is one of the most interesting forums I've ever had the pleasure of being on, and now, I can't imagine never being a part of it.


Thanks,
Jazaray

[nderdog]

Inca, what advise can you give someone who has no rating on MOTL  my experience was bad i traded small first so if i got ripped it wouldn't matter to much when i found the site i got excited a new form to trade world wide but being new your at the mercy of other traders til you get a rating.

I'm not Inca, but I can give a bit of advice here.

What you want to do is trade with high-ref members (say 50+) or so until you have enough references to not have to send first to people with few refs.  Yes, there is the (extremely small) chance that someone with a lot of refs will still rip you, but you certainly can't hold MOTL responsible for such a thing.  MOTL is there to weed out the confirmed bad traders and make the chance that you will end up with the short end of the stick as minimal as possible.

[bigfatkitty]

bigfatkitty:  Was that your username on MOTL?  I find nothing in your Karma history.  I will look into this matter, and I will personally bring it to Leshrac's and Inca's attention.

bigfatkitty of course   ;D

Hey look, I'm banned:

http://forums.magictraders.com/ubbmisc. ... igfatkitty

:P :-[ :P

[dry cereal]

I shouldn't have posted on this forum.  Someone on the inside leaked info and I got banned today.

[flaminio]

Good history, TerraFrost. I'd always been interested in the weird, obscure stuff -- but there came a time where I couldn't keep it all in my head, plus a lot of misinformation started popping up. So, I put together the original site to serve as a "clearinghouse" of sorts for Rarities information. But I will comment...

Bob obviously knew about it, and decided not to include it on the site, but...  it's interesting, none-the-less.

Actually, I did include these, although somewhat later than that Usenet post. One thing about hosting a site like this -- you get a lot of comments from people about weird stuff. It's hard to tell what's real and what people are just making up. I tried to verify stuff as much as possible to avoid posting falsehoods. For example, one guy emailed me several times swearing that he had seen the rest of the 6x9 pain lands, and that they were at some store up in Ottawa. Of course, no one in Canada has a scanner  ::), and so he never could get pictures for me  :P.

Anyways, as for MOTL -- I find that they're a good group, mostly, but they do get weird sometimes. It's a youngish group, too, so you have to check yourself sometimes and realize you're talking to children. Not everyone -- but some.

As for the seemingly random bannings, I think the mods sometimes get power mad. (Not Jaz, though :).) Someone will piss them off, and rather than letting it go or dealing with it constructively, the BAN comes out. I, too, don't know what Bas did to get himself banned, but I searched through his posts and didn't see anything I would have considered ban-worthy. Sure, lots of stupid stuff -- but the same could be said about any number of MOTL members, especially on the GD PfS threads.

Anyway, I'll keep hanging there until they get around to banning me. Which could be any day now ;).

[Jazaray]

I, too, don't know what Bas did to get himself banned, but I searched through his posts and didn't see anything I would have considered ban-worthy. Sure, lots of stupid stuff -- but the same could be said about any number of MOTL members, especially on the GD PfS threads.

Trust me Bob, I've seen his Karma history, and I know why Bas was banned.  It wasn't because of a power hungry Mod, honest.  

:)

Thanks,
Jazaray

[inca911]

Hey look, I'm banned:

http://forums.magictraders.com/ubbmisc. ... igfatkitty

:P :-[ :P

Hey look, now you aren't!  LMK if you have any other odd problems....

[dry cereal]

if bribery is not allowed, ignore the following hypothetical question...

If an admin were to get a package from someone who has a banned account from a dumb incident, say, a poorly selected MOTL handle.  And lets just say that package contained some sort of mtg related item the admin wanted.  Is it possible that the admin would let the banned member unbanned?  
What if the said package included chocolate?

(on a side note, suppose that banned member had 9 positive feedback with one account and 4 from another account...
And he made the alternate account out of sheer enthusiasm to contribute to the trading community.)

[Bas]

chocolate?

Best...comment...ever...

[coolio]

MOTL is a piece of shit. First they ban you for no reason, and then ignore EVERY kind of communication you attempt to get it resolved. (Yes, Inca, if you are reading this, this includes you!). Even various attempts of moderators are ignored. THat is you thanks for a couple of years of being a respected member of their community.

Most bannings are for a reason, but yes, there have been random bannings for no 'good' reasons at all lately, and they WILL ignore you.

MOTL's rules are few and are very straight-forward.  It is true that it is rare for a banned member to be reinstated.  My personal opinion regarding the reinstatement of a member is used to decide the matter when the staff is undecided.  Yes, to save my personal time I do ignore emails from those who were banned and who do not pass the first level of staff review for reinstatement.  It's nothing personal, just a cold impartiality that my volunteer position on the site requires.

I feel it is logical to conclude that those who choose to express their feelings that the site is a P.O.S. are generally not the best candidates for reinstatement.  In your particular case, Bas, had the matter eventually made it to me I'd likely have reinstated you.  Your recent comment in this thread, however, apparently indicates I would have likely made a regretfully poor decision had I done so.

Anyway, back to the question at hand.  I find MOTL to be a great place to trade and the efforts to identify Bad Traders are very beneficial only if one remembers to search names, towns, streets, zip codes, etc. in the Confirmed Bad Trader List prior to trading.  Also, always protect any items that you send that you cannot afford to lose with insurance.  Only insurance protects your property from theft, damage, loss, etc.  Delivery confirmation and registered mail will not pay for your lost Lotus or Foil Survival of the Fittest.  If you protect yourself for those items you can't afford to lose, and trade the smaller stuff based on trust, you'll find MOTL to be a great place.  Buy hey, that's just one guy's opinion....

First and foremost, the rules may be straight forward, but there are LOTS of gray areas, and many things not covered.
second of all, since when did we have this 'two level approval' thing going on?  Is that something new that was put in?  In the 2 months since my resignation?
Third, those who express the site is a PoS are some of those who have been banned in err, or by some crackpot moderator (who shall remain nameless)
I dont think the site's a PoS, however, the way things are being run....... I can tell you one thing, the site isnt the place it was over a yr ago

Erm, no...

It is logical that those who feel they have been given the shaft will harbor ill feelings towards those they feel 'shafted' them in the first place.  You shouldn't be trying to protect 'the sanctity' of the place, you should be making sure that good traders are the norm, bad traders/scammers are ejected and the environment is conducive towards the goal at hand.

Of course, we're not really getting the 'flip side' of things.  WHY were the above people banned, etc.  If they were for reasonable reasons, well, that's life I suppose.  If they were banned for petty reasons, that would concern me, as I have no desire to spend a lot of time and effort building a good reputation (which, I assure you, I would have), knowing that a pissed off admin on a bad day can just axe me and 'I lose'.

Obviously I don't expect you to tell me why they were banned, that's personal really.  But your general comments seem to reinforce what I was thinking.  It does seem like a good place to do low end to middling trades/sales, especially if you take the time to actually research the people you are dealing with, using the tools available to you.

I am a little confused as to where to find the 'unwritten rules' as it were (obviously, they are unwritten).  There are the obvious rules, which make sense to me (saw them as I signed up - the big ones, as it were), but I saw some things about 'no cash auctions' (tho it seems you can have trade auctions and cash sales...) but can't find any backing behind the statement.  Just don't want to tread on rules I can't find.  

Gryfalia

I will tell you, that a random pissed off mod can and will ban you for the most obsecure of reasons, say it was a judgement call, and can let it stick unless you are well known and have a reputation.  On the other hand, if you want to play suck up, that'd most likely protect you to some extent, but if you do get banned, that mod will clamour and whine to try and get you reinstated, then brag how he's a hero for doing it.
the Unwritten rules of the site is simple.. it is the whim (judgement) of the moderator

[coolio]

I said if the staff recommended your reinstatement, I would have agreed.

As I said.. since when did this system get put into place?  Sure as heck wasnt around before Dec, 15 2003
Is this some new policy adopted because a certain moderator keeps cheering to get his buddies (one of whom mind you, have done some serious flaming and harassment to me and other mods via AIM, but it was all right since it wasnt on the site, he had no means of obtaining my private SN hrmmmmmm...)

Bas, you lasted for 2 years before being banned.  You knew how things worked, but somehow decided to get yourself banned.  It's not that hard not to be.  I've gotten smacked twice in the two+ years I've been on MOTL, and karma boosts have evened that out nicely.  

Also, there aren't really any serious alternatives to MOTL.  If you dislike it so much, why not start one?

First, I thought I knew how things worked, appearantly... the internal policies got changed in the two short months I've left my modship, fastest and most absolute than anything else I've seen done by the staff in ages.
Secondly, while you do receive email for karma deductions, you dont for boosts.
Third, those that do start an alternative to MOTL, will be put up for ridicule @ MOTL, by someone like yourself or the aforementioned crackpot moderator, or will see likes sign up to just to be a pain and harass them.

To All:  MOTL is undergoing changes.  Changes in rules and how they are presented.  Changes in cleaning up the amount of "trolling" in the discussion forums.  Changes everywhere.   MOTL is one of the most interesting forums I've ever had the pleasure of being on, and now, I can't imagine never being a part of it.


Thanks,
Jazaray

You know how long we've been saying we're gonna have changes?  btw, while I said a change in rules and the sending policy was necessary years ago, the current ideas on 'changes in rules' as I understand it was not what I had in mind.

[coolio]

As for the seemingly random bannings, I think the mods sometimes get power mad. (Not Jaz, though :).) Someone will piss them off, and rather than letting it go or dealing with it constructively, the BAN comes out. I, too, don't know what Bas did to get himself banned, but I searched through his posts and didn't see anything I would have considered ban-worthy. Sure, lots of stupid stuff -- but the same could be said about any number of MOTL members, especially on the GD PfS threads.

Anyway, I'll keep hanging there until they get around to banning me. Which could be any day now ;).

no kiddin'  I have this v.short list of mods who ban ppl for no good reason @ all..


I'll leave with a few things I've noticed over the years as member, and the 2-3 I've been mod..

The site is in decline.. you might wonder how is this so? many more people are there actively trading and all...
The handling of the site has gone downhill, the internal politics within the staff has ripped apart any semblence of solidarity and a unite/ cohesive moderator team.

I had a discussion this past summer with another fellow moderator with regards to my present rl status.. finding a job.. etc.. and said that the only thing I was gonna do on motl for a bit was to get rid of some of my stuff.
our conversation gets posted in the staff forum and was used as a means to call for my resignation..  Finger pointing and throwing the blame around became quite popular really...
Another incident also occurred where I overreacted, and my colleagues decided to jump on my bones and try to throw me outta modship, but it had become appearant that jumping on each other was common at the time and it just wasnt worth my time.
Some would like to blame it on the lack of admin present.. Quite frankly, the site can run itself, those who shouldered the weight for a lil bit should not think they are god and all should worship you.  Others have done it as well.. and yet now it comes down to bragging 'I do so and so, so and so, etc.' when all that has been done is barely maintain status quo (which doesnt require much effort)
Many have shouldered the weight of the site for ages... tho back then, we were working with each other, not against

Anyways, I see no clear solution for the time being, and the site will continue to decline if the entire staff as a whole dont get their act together.

©

[Bas]

crackpot moderator (who shall remain nameless)

Dad

[silver.paladin]

Wow.  I have never used this MOTL (and do not even know exactly what it means), but it is starting to sound like one sorry website to use for trading.  Maybe in the past (per Coolio's message) this used to be a good place to go to trade or whatever gets done there, but sounds like a disaster place now.  I am glad someone brought this topic up here, as I was thinking of looking into it, and seeing if I could use it to try to sell of the hordes of rares that I have here that I do not want, but fortunately I am now learning that it may very well not be worth investing in.  Thank you for all the discussion on this topic.

[mahdishain]

greetings

i want to restate the my motl experience has been overwhelmingly positive. i have made over one hundred trades with people on every populated continent. there may be some political problems but they have not affected me. the bad experiences of a few of our members are probably not the experiences of the majority of members or the membership would not be 35,216.  i would still reccommend that you try it. i have converted many of my unneeded cards into foils for my sets and cards for my decks.

practice peace

mahdishain (motl username: sage of latnam)