StarCityGames.com Offers Alt 4th cards for Sale

[fvzappa]

Apparently this is the case, no one has been able to prove otherwise. The one thing we have proven is the location. I said many months ago that these cards we printed in my area. Now that we took a good look at the starters, USPCC has been proven the source.

I'd be curious about boosters, if they actually exist like this, but it seems unlikely. I'm sure Eric will be glad....

[BenBleiweiss]

Hey everyone!

Over the past week I’ve been in touch with several people regarding Alternate 4th Edition, and it’s my belief at this point that our initial numbers on surviving 4th Edition were off.  With that said, I’d like to share my thoughts and findings on Alternate 4th Edition with the Rarities community.

As far as we can tell, the entire existing Alternate 4th Edition print run was distributed through Starter decks.  If there are any other sources of Alternate 4th, they have not surfaced in any way, shape or form.   All existing Alternate 4th Edition comes from Starter decks produced by the United States Playing Card Company out of Cincinnati, Ohio.   These decks were supposed to have been destroyed as per a legal agreement between Wizards of the Coast and the USPCC, but obviously some were not.  

As many of you know, we’ve been aggressively pursuing any and all Alternate 4th Edition cards for two years now.  Based on our personal experiences with these cards, coupled with some information we received from sources regarding the print runs, we believed our 10 surviving case figure on Alternate 4th to be a definitive number.  Once we came forward to sell Alternate 4th Edition, previously unpublicized stashes of Alternate 4th Edition have surfaced from various sources.  These stashes were being sat on by various other people, and our promoting Alternate 4th Edition seems to have finally brought these other stashes out of the woodwork.

How many Alternate 4th Edition card are out there?  Judging from the numbers that have shown up from collectors here, the estimate would be that Alternate 4th ranges from .1% to 1% of the regular 4th Edition print run.  Some players have claimed that 1% of their 4th Edition cards are Alternate 4th, whereas others have gone through tens of thousands of cards without having hit a single one.  Based on the total product of Alternate 4th Edition, we believe that the figure of surviving Alternate 4th Edition is closer to the lower estimate than the higher one.  While there is probably more surviving Alternate 4th Edition product than the ten cases we initially put forth, there has been some (but not a significant quantity) of Alternate 4th to come forward in the wake of our announcement.   Given the few auctions that have been put up on E-bay this past week for Alternate 4th Cards, if there was truly a large quantity of Alternate 4th Edition cards out there, other dealers and/or players would have come forward to sell.  They have not emerged in any significant quantities.

[BenBleiweiss]

We will be dropping our prices on Alternate 4th Edition to reflect what we now believe is the proper pricing of Alternate 4th Edition given all the information that has come forward both from this community and from sources outside of this community.  These new prices should go into effect either tomorrow or Friday.  Likewise, we’ve changed the text on our Alternate 4th description to remove any sort of absolute figures.  We do believe Alternate 4th Edition to be very rare, but whether we are right or wrong, there is no way to concretely and absolutely prove any figures we might postulate.

I want to thank the Magic Rarities community members who have kept a level head through this entire discussion about Alternate 4th Edition.  Your feedback has been invaluable, and most of you have kept an open mind about this particular rarity.  We acted based on information we felt was accurate, and we are more than willing to admit when we have made a mistake.  If anyone has any questions or comments, please feel free to contact me at ben@starcitygames.com!  

Ben Bleiweiss
General Manager, StarCityGames.com

[GraueEminenz]

That means the price for my sealed box is dropping, too  :'(
Jan

[Gryfalia]

I'll offer ya 5 dollah!

Gryfalia

[BenBleiweiss]

That means the price for my sealed box is dropping, too  :'(
Jan

Values on all cards are determined by what someone is willing to pay for them - this is true on every collectible item, regardless of whether it's a Magic card, an antique car, or a Beatles LP.  The price on your sealed box should be what you think that box is worth to other people.  

- Ben

[hammr7]

I have wondered why I had seen an unusual amount of alt-4th rares relative to the uncommons and commons.  I now believe there might be another possible source of alt 4th edition cards.  I

In the course of buying collections, I purchased one collection that had about 1,000 regular 4th edition rares and uncommons (regular distribution of rares to uncommons).  The collection included 17 dancing scimitars and 13 alladin's rings, which struck me as quite unusual, since the collection didn't have more than 4 of any other rare.  At the time I already had my players set of fourth edition, so I sold most of the 4th edition cards from that collection to fund other cards I did need.  

I did keep a few cards from the collection because of their great condition, and when I later learned about alt-4th I checked and determined that the few of each I had kept were actually alt 4th.   If all the other copies of those cards were also alt-4th, then that means either someone opened a ton of alt-4th starters, or someone had direct access to quantities of alt-4th rares.

[Mr.C]

... or someone had direct access to quantities of alt-4th rares.

that´s an interesting point. What IF not all the cards that were supposed to be destroyed were destroyed. Could it be possible that employees took karge quantities of rares home with them, when the deal fell through? It´s not that absurd, if you think about it... I mean, if an employee were to take home stuff, he´d go for the rares, not for the commons... Am i just making a very strange point, or does anyone consider it to be valid?

[silver.paladin]

As far as we can tell, the entire existing Alternate 4th Edition print run was distributed through Starter decks.  If there are any other sources of Alternate 4th, they have not surfaced in any way, shape or form.   All existing Alternate 4th Edition comes from Starter decks produced by the United States Playing Card Company out of Cincinnati, Ohio.   These decks were supposed to have been destroyed as per a legal agreement between Wizards of the Coast and the USPCC, but obviously some were not.  

Hello BenBleiweiss,
As a point I was attempting to make before, and seeing what you are saying here, if these cards were supposed to be destroyed as per a legal agreement, are these cards then not in fact illegal?  And as such, would Wizards not have complete rights in approaching any store or online auction and demanding to have these cards turned over to them?  I can fully understand why, as a business, you would not want to have these taken away, and as a collector, as you yourself have stated, that at least a full set of cards would mysteriously vanish  [smiley=ok.gif].  But am I not correct in suggesting that these cards are illegal to have, or in the very least, that these cards are something that Wizards could swoop down and take them back without recompensation, due to the agreement that they were supposed to have with USPCC??

[Celebrindor]

Hello BenBleiweiss,
As a point I was attempting to make before, and seeing what you are saying here, if these cards were supposed to be destroyed as per a legal agreement, are these cards then not in fact illegal?  And as such, would Wizards not have complete rights in approaching any store or online auction and demanding to have these cards turned over to them?  I can fully understand why, as a business, you would not want to have these taken away, and as a collector, as you yourself have stated, that at least a full set of cards would mysteriously vanish  [smiley=ok.gif].  But am I not correct in suggesting that these cards are illegal to have, or in the very least, that these cards are something that Wizards could swoop down and take them back without recompensation, due to the agreement that they were supposed to have with USPCC??

I'm sure they *could* do that, but they would risk massive backlash from the community, and that would be worse for sales.

[fvzappa]

I wonder too about the statute of limitations. These cards are 9 years old now.

Come on over WOTC, I'll put up a good fight!

[TerraFrost]

As a point I was attempting to make before, and seeing what you are saying here, if these cards were supposed to be destroyed as per a legal agreement, are these cards then not in fact illegal?  And as such, would Wizards not have complete rights in approaching any store or online auction and demanding to have these cards turned over to them?

why should starcitygames fear WotC taking action for their selling of alt. 4th when WotC hasn't taken action against anyone for selling summer mtg or test prints?

[silver.paladin]

why should starcitygames fear WotC taking action for their selling of alt. 4th when WotC hasn't taken action against anyone for selling summer mtg or test prints?

Well, to start with, as SCG is saying, is that all these Alt-4th cards were ordered destroyed, legally.
All that has been said about Summer, is that there was a problem with many of the cards for various reasons and it was supposed to be cancelled.
Was Summer legally supposed to be destroyed, or was the print run just cancelled, with some cards escaping into the real world?  That would be one big reason, WoTC may not have gotten legal process to order the 'Summer' cards destroyed - it would have been an internal decision.  Completely different circumstance than Alt-4th.
As for test prints - who really owns them?  Does Wizards have absolute ownership of test prints, or were many of them given out, especially in the earlier days to certain people or not.  Again, completely different circumstances.  At least, I would say that this is completely different, unless/until someone is able to say that these particular cards were supposed to be destroyed.

Remember the DCI Disenchants.  There were supposedly a number of them stolen from Wizards, which has appeared to be quite true, as they were getting Ebay to cancel auctions for those that were attempting to sell these cards.

There is a difference between something that is 'meant' to be destroyed, and that which is legally ordered destroyed.

[TerraFrost]

Was Summer legally supposed to be destroyed, or was the print run just cancelled, with some cards escaping into the real world?  That would be one big reason, WoTC may not have gotten legal process to order the 'Summer' cards destroyed - it would have been an internal decision.  Completely different circumstance than Alt-4th.

Judging from what this website says about summer magic here - that "the entire print run was recalled and destroyed" - it seems to me as if it was more than just cancelled.

As far as the test prints are concerned - without more evidence to the contrary, I'm gonna have to concede to your point.

Also, I suppose a reason why WotC might not care about Alt 4th and arguably Summer is that those are old expansions that don't really compete against products WotC is currently trying to market.  In contrast, when WotC was taking down Disenchants off of eBay, and other test prints (ie. the uncut sheets of Invasion with Pokemon backs), they were doing so to protect the sales of up and coming products.

[BenBleiweiss]

Our Alternate 4th Edition inventory has been repriced - check out http://sales.starcitygames.com/category.php?cat=5015 for the new pricing! We've also added a few sealed starter decks that we've managed to acquire to the Alternate 4th Inventory.  They are priced at $124.99 each, which is at the very low end of what these decks have been selling for on E-bay.

As always, I'll happily answer any questions at ben@starcitygames.com!

- Ben