Magic Library Logo Project

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mahdishain
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Post by mahdishain » Fri Aug 26, 2005 2:57 pm

mint collector

i resent my pm. let me know if you recieve it.

thanks.

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mintcollector
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Post by mintcollector » Fri Aug 26, 2005 3:37 pm

mahdishain wrote:mint collector

i resent my pm. let me know if you recieve it.

thanks.
Yes I did Tom.

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Ralph Herold
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Post by Ralph Herold » Sat Aug 27, 2005 7:22 am

Dear members,

mintcollector has already explained in great detail the status of the project and its possible future, so let me directly head to the most important part at the moment: the funding. I have to admit that I am surprised that nobody has complained so far. While I know that many of you like my webseite, it is one thing to donate a few cards or small amounts of money here and there, but it is something completely different to spend about $ 4000 US, even as a group, just that you will see a nice piece of art whenever you visit my website. Therefore, I have thought about giving you something in return. My idea (fleshed out with the help of mintcollector and hammr7) is to produce a limited number of items using the new logo artwork and hand it to whomever helped fund the project to a certain degree. The nature of this item is completely open for discussion, but natural choices would be a high-quality poster or even a framed art print on canvas, maybe even signed by John Avon. Of course the production of such an item will raise the total costs, but if done correctly, because of the desirabilty of the artwork alone, the additional costs will stay below the market value of the item. In addition, once the logo is in existence, other items might be produced. One example would be a Magic Library t-shirt which has been requested about a year ago, another example would be the dual land proxy project. If enough profit is made, some of the money could be returned to the people who helped fund the logo. Obviously a lot of yet unknown factors will heavily decide the existence and outcome of such projects, so I can not make any promises yet. The basic idea should be evident, however: If you wish to support the logo project, instead of making a donation, you will pay a price as you will directly receive something in return. In addition, this price might also become an investment, as other projects will see the light of day. At this point let me add that my intention is not to found a company and plague the community with useless fan article junk. I just want to have a beautiful logo I can legally use without any boundaries and am thinking about a way to let this come true. On the other hand, if the community would like to see a specific product come to existence like a community t-shirt or dual land proxies, I will do my part to let it happen. I believe this project is a further step to bind together this community and to imbue it with an identity, but I leave it to you whether you deem such an act worthy of support.

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mintcollector
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Post by mintcollector » Sat Aug 27, 2005 1:32 pm

Update: I have received a couple donations commitments. We are about at $2150 so far in total. Special thanks so far to:

Dilligaf
Celibrindor
mahdishain

As Ralph stated, he prefers this not to be a trsight donatons, but an investment of sorts. The return on investment can be great if you think about it. Of course no guarantees, but the possibility does exist.

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Post by dragsamou » Sat Aug 27, 2005 1:37 pm

mintcollector wrote:Update: I have received a couple donations commitments. We are about at $2150 so far in total. Special thanks so far to:

Dilligaf
Celibrindor
mahdishain

As Ralph stated, he prefers this not to be a trsight donatons, but an investment of sorts. The return on investment can be great if you think about it. Of course no guarantees, but the possibility does exist.
Hi Mike.
I should be able to let you know exactely how much I will put,on Monday.
How much is missing so far?
Want/Have Lists.
viewtopic.php?f=8&t=8903
viewtopic.php?f=7&t=1515
I Love you Dad.R.I.P.

LogoProject

A comment

Post by LogoProject » Sat Aug 27, 2005 4:37 pm

Please to allow me to write a few comments. I was not going to say anything at all in regards to mine opinions, but it appears to me, that Ralph is perhaps interested in the comments of naysayers, so here I am.

This is a temporary, perhaps one-time account. I may be normally just a guest, a short-term member or a long term member, but I wish to remain anonymous, in case mine comments are considered upsetting by some others.

This project, very expensive, yes. But I question the idea of asking members online here to contribute to this project. By making contributions public, you are keeping track of funds raised which are good. By saying who is able to contribute and how much, you are perhaps making many a person uneasy. There is, and always will be, a level of disparity between those that ‘have’ and those that are the ‘have-nots’. By publicly announcing how much a person is contributing, you are (however unintentionally) making some people feel poorer about themselves, because they are unable to contribute, at any level.

This project, in my mind, should be completely undertaken by the owner of this website. Why? Well, what would happen if he were to have to sell the Library, either due to fiscal constraints, or because he does not have the time anymore to properly maintain it? Would you as contributors be happy to see your contributed funds given control to another individual? What if Mintcollector was to run this site – or conversely, someone like MRM was to control this site? Would you feel as happy then giving your money away to a project like this, as in how well would you feel you would trust someone else to be running this site, and having control of this highly paid logo?

Selling or auctioning off an ‘original’ type print to help raise funds. Would someone who contributes heavily to this project (say, in excess of $500 or $1000) not want to be the owner of the print that he/she has already paid so much towards? If the print ‘auctions’ for only $100, would it really be worth it. If it ‘auctions’ off for $1500 (one third of total costs so far projected), and someone else has contributed $1500 so far, in essence, this means that 2 people have each contributed $1500, but only one individual has received a nice art print for their funds. Perhaps the person, who has contributed $1500 so far, has won this auction of $1500. Now they have spent a total of $3000 (or two thirds) of the total projected cost. Why should not that person have control of the copyrights then, if he/she has almost bought the whole thing at this point? What are the chances of bad feelings (or even bad blood) occurring because of a situation like this. Now, I expect that MintCollector may have a comment on this, but I ask, what if it is someone else on here that also contributes this kind of amount, and then has this kind of problem? Again, another reason for publicly stating your own contributions is not a good idea.

Losing, or selling control of Magic Library. As alluded to above, is this a possibility? As a critique (but not an attack), this site is sorely falling behind on proper updates. Many promo cards have been released in recent months, and none of them are appearing here. Updates like this cost time, much more than it costs money. If the time is not available to be properly updating this site (even just once a month), can time be properly spent controlling an expensive computerized logo that costs $5000. There have been (complaints, critiques, comments) in the past about when updates were going to happen. How can you/we looking towards the future of various items (pens, cards, t-shirts – all money related items) when the non-monetary time is lagging? Can Ralph at this point in time, even guarantee that he will maintain control of the Library? His time is cut very short here right now due to educational constraints – but how about after September? More time need be dedicated towards education, or employment, or family? I understand also, that Ralph has a vision for the future of the Library (short and long-term), but how realistic will this vision be, if the time is not available to see this vision through. If the Library gets sold, that would mean the Logo would (or at least should) be sold with it, as part of the Library. That Logo will, or may, add a value of about $4000 to the selling price of this site. Does this money go back to the site owner Ralph, or does it go back to the contributors of the Logo? Contributing money is just that – monies contributed, no returns expected. If you contribute $100 or $1000, and the site is sold, and you do not like the direction that the new owner is going, would you not want your monies back, since you contributed the funds for a reason, and now that reason may be gone? By having the owner of the site fully fund this project, if he were to decide to sell the site, then he can do so, in fully clear conscious, because it is all his that he is selling.

About the idea of doing a type of dual-lands project. Another very expensive and time consuming project. I will not say very much on this subject here, other than I feel that this is also in unfortunately not a very doable project. My reasoning for this, is directly due to the tokens created by GamingEtc. $10 for a set when they first came out. They had, a print run of about 10,000 I believe (the same print run as being suggested for these lands) – and what is happening on Ebay now? He is trying to sell these off, either in sets of 20 same tokens, or 4 complete sets for $5. You may have bought one set from him for $10, but now you can buy 4 sets for $5. Yes, once again this is tokens, and the tokens have really saturated the market, so it may not have been the wisest decision this business has made. And yes, the dual-land idea is much different, and at the moment this may be a good idea (I say at the moment, because who knows, next week some business may come out with this type of promotional idea, which would put a damper on the Library doing the same project). Also, these companies doing these tokens are companies. They are already designed as businesses, have advertising, have a customer base. The Library has more or less a collector base. People who may buy a set or 4, for collecting reasons. The Library would have to open up to a whole new sector of Magic people to even begin to start selling these cards. We have already seen what has happened when the Library opens up to more than just the ‘rarity’ type collectors. All new people asking – how much is this, how much is that, who wants to trade a swamp for an island, how do I sneak a peak inside an old package, why isn’t this site being updated – a bunch of silly (and often worthless) questions and posts, that many members here in the past have expressed dismay over. Do you really want to open the Library up to more of this?

I have more that I could say (but at the moment have forgotten what it is) but perhaps enough has been said at this point so far. If anyone were to wish to debate what I have said here, I am not sure if I would do so, or just leave this alone as a one-time comment.

mahdishain
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Post by mahdishain » Sat Aug 27, 2005 5:53 pm

logoproject and members

your points are interesting and valid from a certain point of view. personally, i offered my contribution to the logoproject for the same reason i have made contributions in the past, to thank ralph for maintaining this site. it is an emotional investment, not a monetary one.

i do not believe that ralph is maintaining this site as an investment, however, if he reaches the point where he feels he has to sell the site for any reason, i believe he has earned that right. i would not deserve any of the money from such a sale. i earned a bit of gratitude which ralph has
always shown. he is attempting to show gratitude toward logoproject contributers without making promises that he might not be able to keep.
this i respect and makes me more willing to contribute as i can.

to me the benefits of contributing to this project are self evident. i appreciate logoproject for expressing some negative aspects to contributing. i am sure contributions can be kept anonomous for those who wish.

i hope that all members will consider the possibility of contributing and do so to the extent that they are able. i understand that most of you will chose not to. for most people life is a struggle economically and their our competing causes appealling for your cash. i considered my options and chose to contribute to this project. i hope enough you will do the same so that the magic library can have a logo in which we all can be proud.
practice peace

random
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Post by random » Sat Aug 27, 2005 6:27 pm

I think the likelyhood of this artwork being as "poor" as the power nine tokens and whatnot is VERY unlikely. I also think that it would be a VERY smart fiscal idea to use this artwork on some type of card or token... John mentions that it's a bad idea to place his work too close to anything that WOTC might not like... I'm sure that some creative thinking over the next few months while said artwork is being created could produce an idea that will recoup the money spent like maybe a membership card/token or something to that effect. That seems more collectable than a t-shirt idea.
I think the scope of this site is more about the "haves" than the "have not's" just in General... It's hard to have many magic rarities if you're a "have not". I think it's a good idea to make a "Magic Rarity" out of whatever it's decided will be produced and these items would be given to said contributors. Then, t-shirts or more accessible tokens will be made available to whoever want them. If the artwork is cool enough these items would be very popular regardless. Just my 2 cents. Whoever is running this thing can pm me as I can make a donation.

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mintcollector
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Post by mintcollector » Mon Aug 29, 2005 12:18 pm

dragsamou wrote:
mintcollector wrote:Update: I have received a couple donations commitments. We are about at $2150 so far in total. Special thanks so far to:

Dilligaf
Celibrindor
mahdishain

As Ralph stated, he prefers this not to be a trsight donatons, but an investment of sorts. The return on investment can be great if you think about it. Of course no guarantees, but the possibility does exist.
Hi Mike.
I should be able to let you know exactely how much I will put,on Monday.
How much is missing so far?
Alexis: We need to get $3800 in total. So keeping that in mind, watch any updates for donations. Current as of this post we have $2250 committed.

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mintcollector
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Post by mintcollector » Mon Aug 29, 2005 1:04 pm

As mahdishain has pointed out my contribution is not viewed as an investment, but to help fund a project as a pure donation out of gratitude for everything this site and it's community have provided me. As a M:TG collector and before I came across this site, I did my best tracking M:TG promo cards with a broken level of success. I spent quite some time working with people I knew until one day an east coast collector I knew recommended this site to me. This site was exactly what I was looking for. It helped me complete my collection, filled holes I was missing, and is always a source I relish daily to help me stay on top of the M:TG collecting world. So as mahdishain also made reference to, my donation is just that, a donation. I don't not worry about the future and if the site is transfered for ownership. My donation was not to Ralph per say, but to the website itself. I spend quite a bit of time talking with Ralph I know Ralph still has a lot of heart for this site. This site has maintained a level of decency, for which this new logo will represent. I am just fortunate to be able to afford what I can, and am humble enough to donate this money for all to share. My donation announcement was not meant to belittle people or make them feel bad, but to show I do care about the project and what it might mean for the community. Ralph can even comment that I stated that if profits are made to "payback" others first and I am not interested in getting my money back. My money was meant as a donation, and nothing more. There have been those who have pointed out they don't have a lot of money, like Mr. C. I consder him an equal member of the community and think nothing less of him that anyone else. Also on the flipside, I have little to no concerns what Ralph does wih the logo. In fact, I hope he does make money from ths and can help supplement future income. Ralph puts a lot of time and effort into this site with little to no thanks in return, and certainly no monetary compensation. He does it as a hobby. So for the haves and have nots, I am asking the haves to help us all. I know not everyone here can help out monetarily, but if a lot of members can even afford small amounts, we can reach our goal for the project cost. I am just aware that some of us can help and am asking them to help most of all. So I hope this clears up any confusion on my point on the project. Just as in email, much gets lost in the written word. My money is my little way of saying thanks to all of you and what this site does for me. I only hope it helps keeping it going for as long as we all are here.

Oh yeah, regading those that cannot donate financially. I already asked those to start to make sketches for the project and help get them to me. Even most public libraries have the tools and equipment to scan a sketch in and then be able to mail it somewhere. Everyone can be a part of this project if they so choose.

Please send any ideas to either my work email of mike.schmidt@walgreens.com or to my home of mintcollector@comcast.net. I am in a Windows Scripting class all this week so I cannot access my work email until I resturn on 9/6, so for this week alone my home is the best way to get stuff to me.

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Ralph Herold
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Post by Ralph Herold » Sat Sep 10, 2005 9:44 pm

Dear members,

More time has passed, but no progress has been made in collecting the funds for this project. While without doubt the amount of money already collected ($ 2150 US) is nothing short of an accomplishment, far more important is the fact that it is based upon the contribution of only four people! For a community project, this is a clear indicator that the majority by far does not approve the project. This is surprising, given that initial interest seemed to be high to set into motion a Magic Library endorsed dual land proxy card project.

Now the question for me is why there is such a lack of support, nonmonetary contributions included. I can guess a few reasons, but without proper voicing, I am left in the dark and any progress is doomed to fail. Let me emphasize that while I enjoy the idea to have a new logo, I personally do not *need* a new logo. I am fine with the old one, and I have no personal plans which require to create a new one. You, however, approached me with ideas over time to create specific Magic Library products. For these products, a legal logo is a prerequisite. This is the simple reason why this project came to existence in the first place. As you see, it all lies in your hands. I merely respond to the ideas presented to me.

At this point, let me thank LogoProject for taking his (or her?) time to point out risks involved with the funding of a logo. I think the points made are valid to the most part. Nonetheless, I wish to comment on them:

privacy issues
I have no plans to publicize the amount of money donated per member.

future change of ownership
I really doubt that I will ever give the website to somebody else. Of course, I can not predict the future, so I can not completely rule out such a course of events. However, two things are certain already:

1. I will rather let my website die before giving it to somebody I deem unworthy.

2. Should the unlikely event come indeed true, the ownership of the logo would be handed over together with the website.

ownership of the logo
It should be clear from what has been said already that the sole ownership of the logo would belong to me.

Last but not least, I wish to thank mintcollector and hammr7 for investing time to help me flesh out the logo project and mintcollector, madishain, Celebrindor, and Diligaf for donating or promising to donate.

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Ralph Herold
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Post by Ralph Herold » Mon Sep 26, 2005 1:52 am

project cancelled

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Dilligaf
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Post by Dilligaf » Mon Sep 26, 2005 6:19 am

Ralph Herold wrote:project cancelled

Sad Panda :(
Never argue with an Idiot, they will drag you down to their level then beat you with experience.
** Trying to collect one of each (at least) Brom Artwork.. if you have extra stuff, PM me.. AP's too!

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mintcollector
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Post by mintcollector » Mon Sep 26, 2005 4:39 pm

Special thanks to those who commited to donate. Those of you who did, money had been refunded.

mahdishain
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Post by mahdishain » Tue Sep 27, 2005 3:42 am

i am very disappointed in the failure of this project. i am curious to know why there was so little interest. did most members think that this was a bad idea or are our addictions so strong that we do not have any money
beyond our collection budgets? if eveyone who had ever posted more than 50 times had kicked in twenty dollars we would have raised the money. i am interested in hearing members thoughts on this subject.

practice peace

tom

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