Magic Library Logo Project

Moderators: cataclysm80, Apocalypse2K, berkumps, dragsamou, mystical_tutor, pp, hammr7, l0qii

TerraFrost
Legendary Creature For Hire
Posts: 263
Joined: Mon Aug 04, 2003 5:19 am
Location: Austin, TX
Contact:

Post by TerraFrost » Tue Sep 27, 2005 4:08 am

I think a lot of people are likely to be hesitant to divulge their reasons for not participating because they don't want those who did participate to try to allay their fears. They don't want to have their fears called stupid nor do they really want to debate it. To elaborate upon the last item... if you didn't want to discuss your attitudes on the projects onset, why would you want to, now?

Of course, then again, all that assumes that people actually have reasons for not donating, and I don't think even that's really necessary. Reason doesn't dictate our wants and desires. Reason isn't what makes someone want to buy a new car and reason wasn't what made Romeo fall in love with Juliet. Likewise, I don't think people need to have quantifiable reasons for not wanting to donate. I don't feel like it really is the reason, sometimes. It'd be nice if it wasn't, but it is and that's just a fact of life. I mean, you shouldn't cave into peer pressure if your hearts telling you otherwise.

random
Librarities Legend
Posts: 388
Joined: Thu Aug 04, 2005 8:17 pm
Location: Los Angeles

Post by random » Tue Sep 27, 2005 4:28 am

Maybe bad timing with all these natural disasters happening lately.

User avatar
Ralph Herold
Legendary Magic Library Administrator
Posts: 574
Joined: Sun Apr 06, 2003 3:00 am
Location: Germany

Post by Ralph Herold » Tue Sep 27, 2005 5:57 am

TerraFrost: I sense a tendency to keep something unspoken. I suggest you speak up your mind and "spill the beans". Improvement is bound to naming the flaw first. And besides, what is there to fear? Do you think I will try to punish you or anybody who disagrees with a course of action I have taken? This is ridiculous.

User avatar
Dilligaf
Legendary Misplaced Limey Judge
Posts: 251
Joined: Sun Feb 06, 2005 9:14 am
Location: Denton, TX
Contact:

Post by Dilligaf » Tue Sep 27, 2005 6:16 am

Personally, i was excited by the prospect.. especially when John Avon was mentioned.. my roommate collects John Avon art cards so it would have been awesome to have his flair as part of ML.net

Some people may have winced at the price quoted.. and i admit i did too.. but i use libraru every day, its an amazing resource populated by an even more amazing group of people. Any donation i would have made would have been my way of saying thank you to the community... on a related note, this is also why i opted into the Xmas project. I take from the community so i like to give back.

Perhaps some people felt that a $5000 logo was pricey and couldnt justify the donation, or couldnt justify the logo.. i dont know. maybe it was a moral/ethical thing, maybe it was a feeling of little or no control over the end product..

i think im just rambling now. but i'll conclude with a big thankyou to Ralph and the ML.net community.. i feel that ive made some amazing new friends here and hopefully i'll get to actually meet some of you one day (i'll be at GP Philly.. you all should come too.. we'll take it over. pirate style.)

*salutes*
Never argue with an Idiot, they will drag you down to their level then beat you with experience.
** Trying to collect one of each (at least) Brom Artwork.. if you have extra stuff, PM me.. AP's too!

TerraFrost
Legendary Creature For Hire
Posts: 263
Joined: Mon Aug 04, 2003 5:19 am
Location: Austin, TX
Contact:

Post by TerraFrost » Tue Sep 27, 2005 6:27 am

And besides, what is there to fear? Do you think I will try to punish you or anybody who disagrees with a course of action I have taken? This is ridiculous.
That's not what I think, at all. It's just that if people post their reasons (assuming they have them), others are liable to disagree with them. In other words, a debate is liable to ensue. And if they didn't want a debate when this project was conceived, why would they want a debate in its aftermath?

Also, like I said... I don't think people even really need reasons. If "I just didn't feel like it" (which isn't much of a reason) is a good enough reason for not chosing a particular career or major then why isn't it a good enough reason for chosing not to donate?

The fact is that people just don't always need (good) reasons to do the things they do and the things that they don't. I don't, as an example, have a good reason for getting bad grades. As such, when I do, I don't try to excuse it and I don't try to justify it. My "reasons" are stupid and I'd only be inviting criticism if I were to share them. However, that doesn't change the fact that I do get bad grades. I mean, it'd be nice if I had a mindset conducive to good grades, but I don't - and as stupid and irrational as my mindset might sometimes be, I can't change it on a whim. But neither do I try to make excuses it.

User avatar
dragsamou
Administrator
Posts: 5660
Joined: Sat Aug 02, 2003 1:17 pm
Location: Paris

Post by dragsamou » Tue Sep 27, 2005 8:35 am

Hi Members.
I will just make few comments.This is not a New situation at all:
http://www.magiclibrary.net/library-credits.html
Truth is that very few Members out of the 629,are actively participating to help the website and it was the same when we were less than 300.
Donating financially is one thing,that in fact very few Members can afford but there's a lot of way to help the website,the Support section is almost full as Day one,but donating time to search answers or providing scans,or anything else have Always been very low.I did have no problems to tell Ralph over the phone why my participation on the money level will not be that big on that time,I did offer 300$,on the other side,I have well over 70 New Magic Rarities waiting to be scanned,not mentioning All the ones that Ralph have in his computer for future Updates.So,to be honest,a 5000$ Project,didn't have that many chances to see the light.If the 629 Members will have given around 8$,there was a New logo,but out of 629,less than 30 Members are doing something for this website.Now,how many others Members are making money with this website :wink:
Also,I believe a Huge money support should have been provided by the Commercial Links as they have a Really Good website to advertize theirs companies.
http://www.magiclibrary.net/library-links.html
Just my opinion.
Want/Have Lists.
viewtopic.php?f=8&t=8903
viewtopic.php?f=7&t=1515
I Love you Dad.R.I.P.

victorcamp
Librarities Legend
Posts: 98
Joined: Sat Aug 02, 2003 9:27 pm
Location: Minneapolis, Minnesota, USA

Logo Project

Post by victorcamp » Tue Sep 27, 2005 2:18 pm

My reason is simple: I have no money. I help when I can through other means. The project idea is fabulous, and had I been making the money I was when last fully employed ('98 or so), I would have had no qualms about donating a sizable chunk. I look forward to being in that position again.

User avatar
bigfatkitty
Legendary Overweight Cat Warrior
Posts: 370
Joined: Sat Aug 02, 2003 9:56 pm
Location: Charlotte, North Carolina, USA

Post by bigfatkitty » Thu Sep 29, 2005 10:32 am

I'll throw in my opinion since I've been absent.

It seems in order to get the project done, certain mambers would have to submit a large amount of the $5000. I could almost justify $100 since I use the site a great deal, but to put out money with no real return or majority ownership doesn't make sense to me.

User avatar
Ralph Herold
Legendary Magic Library Administrator
Posts: 574
Joined: Sun Apr 06, 2003 3:00 am
Location: Germany

Post by Ralph Herold » Thu Sep 29, 2005 1:38 pm

Let me get one important piece of the puzzle straight: The whole point why I and a few other people are irritated and disappointed is not about the question "Why has almost nobody donated?" It would be audacious to ask such a question given that a donation is by definition an act of altruism and can not be demanded. The real question is "Why has almost nobody supported the project they wanted to see in action in the first place?" It all started with the Dual Land Proxy Project. Quite a few people were thrilled about it. Enough people also wanted it to be a Magic Library project. This led to the resurrection of the Magic Library Logo Project as a first step to set the Dual Land Proxy Project into motion. The questionable part is that at this point where the whole idea was at the threshold to become a serious endeavor, support of any kind died down over night - on both the logo and the dual land proxies! This is what caused the irritation and the disappointment, as time and energy had been spent in vain in belief that both projects were supported well enough to have a chance to see the light of day.

User avatar
Archivist
Librarities Legend
Posts: 213
Joined: Sat Aug 02, 2003 6:22 pm
Location: USA
Contact:

Post by Archivist » Thu Sep 29, 2005 2:27 pm

For me, the downfall was in the fixation on John Avon. While it was interesting to ask him what he'd charge, once you heard back it should have been immediately apparent to everyone that his fee was out of reach. Why do you think no other Magic website have such an elaborate logo, even the most successful merchant sites?

Why not search out a lesser-known artist, even a non-Magic one? Why not hold an open logo contest?
Boxes: @TCGPlayer | Singles: @CardShark | Trades: @PucaTrade

User avatar
flatmatt
Legendary Wild Bear Tracker
Posts: 313
Joined: Sat Aug 02, 2003 10:27 am
Location: Michigan, USA
Contact:

Post by flatmatt » Thu Sep 29, 2005 2:48 pm

Exactly. I don't see why the website needs a logo by a professional artist. After all, and I say this with all respect to Ralph, it's just a website. Having a logo doesn't improve the content any, and that's what's important to me.

Additionally, regarding the dual land project, I just don't think these kind of investments are worth it. This isn't a commercial website, and I don't see how it's possible to recoup the money on these projects.

User avatar
bigfatkitty
Legendary Overweight Cat Warrior
Posts: 370
Joined: Sat Aug 02, 2003 9:56 pm
Location: Charlotte, North Carolina, USA

Post by bigfatkitty » Thu Sep 29, 2005 8:36 pm

I'd actually be all for spending money to get more frequent updates as oppossed to special cards or logos. And that's not a shot at Ralph, I know he's very busy. ;D
Solitary Member of Dragsamou's 'Dirty Frenchie' Fan Club.
Worshiped by all Netherlandians.

silver.paladin
Librarities Legend
Posts: 370
Joined: Sat Aug 02, 2003 10:59 pm
Location: Cowtown, Alberta, Canada

Post by silver.paladin » Thu Sep 29, 2005 11:26 pm

I will agree with earlier replies, that in my opinion, a major reason that the Logo Project met with such little enthusiasm, is because of the cost. I personally do not care one way or the other in regards to whom the artist is - all I would care about is the final product. That cost of five thousand was entirely far too expensive - especially since all it was for, is a digital picture.

The picture presently being used on the Library may not be the prettiest picture, but it is more than sufficient in my opinion. If other people do not like the picture, and want a different picture, than those same other people can, and should, be the ones to pay for a different picture - if indeed a cost must be met to change the current logo picture.

Part of the costs involved, was to pay for 100% rights to the copyright. Really, what does that matter? If for some reason, that some sort of product was created (dual land proxies, t-shirts, coffee cup) for the Library and needed the 'official' logo, give a percentage of the revenues to the artist, as would be the artist right. The chances of the Library making enough revenues to offset that cost is slim, since the Library is still primarily a small community - and to advertise products to increase revenue is most likely going to mean more expenses also. Besides, John Avon was going to charge a significant amount for the copyright - how many other artists would not have charged this additional fee? And the work could have been just as good, if not better.

As FatKitty is saying above, personally, I would much rather see updates happening here, then seeing some kind of material special project(s) created. Ralph has been quite so busy for the past while with his studies and such, and temporarily has time available to start doing a few updates again - and with this time of rare availablity, how can there be time to do other projects (ie. t-shirts, cups, duals, etc).

silver.paladin
Librarities Legend
Posts: 370
Joined: Sat Aug 02, 2003 10:59 pm
Location: Cowtown, Alberta, Canada

Post by silver.paladin » Thu Sep 29, 2005 11:48 pm

One other item of thought I just had - is I think that this is a great example of where and when the concept of the "poll" could be used. I know I suggested about using polls quite a while back, and the few replies that were made in that thread were negative (in that it was not a good idea). But since then, Ralph has added the "poll" feature when creating new threads, and it has been used a few times (only 4 or 5 times so far I think).
But, this could have been a very good time to have used it. Bascially, a poll with a number of options, could have clarified much earlier how much, or what kind of support was available for this kind of project. Yes, there was a thread, and discussion, but that was about it. A discussion was talked about, then a phone call to Ralph, then a quick discussion online here, and then virtually the next day, emails sent to John, information obtained, and then the request for funds.
Personally, I think it would have been much smarter (in a business plan sense), to have a poll of some kind, and see what kind of financial support may have been made available, before the actual request for funds was made.
My belief is that such a poll would have made the opinions of many more people available, in that people could either contribute to the discussion thread, or, if they felt uneasy for any reason, could make their opinion felt using the poll, without having to reveal any reasons why - or even revealing themself, if they wished to remain anonymous. I personally was not in favour in this project (as previously mentioned), but since I was not in favour, I did not see any reason to comment on it. If a poll had been made available though, I most definitely would have made my opinion available using that method, rather than just staying quiet.

The poll is a tool that Ralph has made available, a tool that I do not feel many people make use of, however, tools in general are created for people to use, for better or for worse.

What can I say? I like polls, especially around lady dancers! =D>

User avatar
Jess
Legendary Wet Dreams Tokens Creator
Posts: 98
Joined: Fri Jun 11, 2004 12:21 pm
Location: Paris
Contact:

Post by Jess » Fri Sep 30, 2005 10:53 am

Archivist wrote:For me, the downfall was in the fixation on John Avon. While it was interesting to ask him what he'd charge, once you heard back it should have been immediately apparent to everyone that his fee was out of reach. Why do you think no other Magic website have such an elaborate logo, even the most successful merchant sites?

Why not search out a lesser-known artist, even a non-Magic one? Why not hold an open logo contest?
I believe it would be tough for me to be objective, being an illustrator myself and all, but I do believe 5k for a logo is really expensive.

If needed, I can work on this project for a much lower fee (€1'000-2'000) and offer some additional services such as web layout, wallpapers, banners & stuff.

You by now should know my Magic website (http://www.neotoken.com), plus you can find my professional website here:
http://www.comicsanddesign.com/

This is the best I can do for now, 'hope it will help.
Artist for Neo-Token.

Post Reply

Who is online

Users browsing this forum: No registered users and 2 guests