Magic Library Logo Project

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normalbrains
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Post by normalbrains » Fri Sep 30, 2005 11:53 am

since in some small way i started this whole process, ill give my views and explain why i donated no money to the cause. the magic libary logo project was supposed to be a pre-cursor to the dual land proxy project (formery the magic library community project).

i dont see the connection between the 2 projects. the dual land project was supposed to be a project where every member of this community could contribute ideas, skills, and time to create a unique product. the logo project amounted to members donating money to this site to flesh out ralph's vision of a logo. i kind of felt that the enthusiasm for the dual land project has hijacked for a different cause. truthfully, i think that the dual land project is a bad idea, but i still would have contributed money and taken part in the project. it would have been fun (although frustrating also im sure). my intitial vision was to harness the unique knowledge, skills, and creativity of this community and manifest that into a unique product. the logo project just wasnt a priority to me. i thought id throw in my 2 cents since i dropped out of the discussion for a while.

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Post by mintcollector » Fri Sep 30, 2005 4:01 pm

Ok, I have kept quiet on this subject for some time now, but the latest comments have shown sheer stupidity amongst members that I find horribly laughable.

Time to rip a few new ones....
For me, the downfall was in the fixation on John Avon. While it was interesting to ask him what he'd charge, once you heard back it should have been immediately apparent to everyone that his fee was out of reach. Why do you think no other Magic website have such an elaborate logo, even the most successful merchant sites?

Why not search out a lesser-known artist, even a non-Magic one? Why not hold an open logo contest?
Archivist: If you actually took the time to read this thread....
you will see that Ralph had answered this question:
Q: Well what artist would you prefer to have contracted to design the logo?
A: I want an established M:TG artist to do the logo artwork. Since I want a landscape I would like to have one of my favorite landscape artists do the artwork.

Ralph's site, Ralph's desires. I really don't think john Avon's fee was out of reach. Between a few members we easily hit 2/3's the project cost. What floored both Ralph, other contributors, and I was that the rest of you dillholes gave squat and did not comment on anything. Sorry if some of us can afford more, but it is those members we expected to get financial help from. Many members here buy boxes and singles by the boatload. It is obvious may could kick in $20 or more. No one seemed to care. Now I know we have members that cannot afford aynthing and I would not fault them, as I can understand this and fault them not at all. The rest of you can just suck it. Continue to be ass-leeches on this site.
The picture presently being used on the Library may not be the prettiest picture, but it is more than sufficient in my opinion. If other people do not like the picture, and want a different picture, than those same other people can, and should, be the ones to pay for a different picture - if indeed a cost must be met to change the current logo picture.
silver.paladin: Do you fail to understand that the logo Ralph is currently using cannot be used for anything at all? The logo is an obvious pirating of WOTC intellectual property that could easily be forced not to exist via a cease and desist order. Of course you ask why WOTC has not done anything, and that is because Ralph or the site has not made profit from it at all. A new logo would need devised to conduct any sanctioned project by the site, and Ralph desired to get one done by a reknowed artist, particularly one doing the best landscapes. Apparently you are too shortsighted to see this simple fact.
Besides, John Avon was going to charge a significant amount for the copyright - how many other artists would not have charged this additional fee?
silver.paladin[again]: Any artist that would be worthwhile getting would charge some fee of this type. For those of you not paying attention to the big picture on things, WOTC has not been investing money into new artwork just for the heck of it when doing card re-prints. They are doing it as they have changed their practices when dealing with artists. Artists used to be paid a smaller lump fee and then assigned royalties based on re-printing the art. This was done so a small startup company could afford the art for the product, and the artists are risking things hedging on the product doing well by which they will be paid handsomely for their royalties. Well all these new artworks that are coming out are being contracted very differently. WOTC is outright buying the art going forward. By this they have to pay a larger fee for the work upfront to placate the artist. This fee is their normal lump fee plus the fees associated with buying all the rights to the work. Any established M:TG artist would have charged this additional fee for outright buying the rights to the artwork, and with the desire to use a M:TG artist, we went into this knowing this fact. John acted like any other artist would have. In closing, get a clue.
[quote[And the work could have been just as good, if not better. [/quote]
silver.paladin[again]: HA HA! Apparently you are blind and mentally challenged, so no furuther comment.
One other item of thought I just had - is I think that this is a great example of where and when the concept of the "poll" could be used. I know I suggested about using polls quite a while back, and the few replies that were made in that thread were negative (in that it was not a good idea). But since then, Ralph has added the "poll" feature when creating new threads, and it has been used a few times (only 4 or 5 times so far I think).
silver.paladin[yet again]: DUH DUH DUH:
http://www.magiclibrary.net/phpBB2/viewtopic.php?t=2428
This was the only option open for debate. Ralph had plans for the rest of the options since the site is his.
But, this could have been a very good time to have used it. Bascially, a poll with a number of options, could have clarified much earlier how much, or what kind of support was available for this kind of project. Yes, there was a thread, and discussion, but that was about it. A discussion was talked about, then a phone call to Ralph, then a quick discussion online here, and then virtually the next day, emails sent to John, information obtained, and then the request for funds.
silver.paladin[man I am getting tired of responding to you]: you apparently have no concept of time either Here is the timeline for a refresher:
Jul20-normalbrains opened the idea up about doing a special project
Jul23-Celebrindor was noted to come up with the textless dual land project
Jul26-After speaking with Ralph I posted to see if this was to be a members-only project or one endorsed by Magic Library.
-Also the poll to ask whether this should be a site-endorsed project was posted
Jul28-I got an anonymous response stating Rob Alexandar would not be available for the project.
Jul29-Poll results were in and for those that responded to the poll, 92% wanted the Textless Dual land project to use the new logo and be endsored by the site.
Aug4-John Avon responded to my email
Aug24-More John info based on our phone call. At this point the topic of money was opened up and I started the fund with my $1500 donation.
and so on...

My point is that a full 9 days passed prior to sending anything out to anyone. Money was not even discussed until close to a month later! Your illustration of the project being a "wham bam thank you m'am' rush is unfounded and moronic.
Personally, I think it would have been much smarter (in a business plan sense), to have a poll of some kind, and see what kind of financial support may have been made available, before the actual request for funds was made.
silver.paladin[yet again, sigh]: As stated before, I know what the financial power of this site is. It was obvious very few others cared enough to get this project going. Creating a poll just to show people what everyone can throw into the bucket would have been a foolish idea and not only does it belittle those that cannot donate and bascially publicize it, but it might also have people just donate what they feel they shouldd. I still think putting the goal of $3800 out and then asking people to contribute makes more sense. I treated this project as a donation project and like any other fund raiser where goals are posted and then status is then updated (ie. church or library fundraisers you see signs for). You obviously don't know how to run a project.

Bah, there is so much more I want to comment on, but this is not worth my time and is tiresome. Let me just say for the record in closing, thanks for those of you who wanted to donate or did donate, and for the rest of you that could have afforded something, screw off. Community my ass. Bunch of all-talk and no action butt wranglers is all I see. I am beyond livid at most of the community. I'll continue to post here and continue to aid Ralph as I have done in the past, but this project has really soured me on most of you. I am just in simple disbelief that there are so few that can see the big picture and what this could have meant. For those of you just wishing to keep the site as is, so be it, as this is where things stand. Also for the future I will publically state to expect no help or assistance of any kind should any project be devised. I am done. I am taking my ball and bat and going home.

Ralph: Still expect my usually contributions to contunue as they always have.

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Post by silver.paladin » Fri Sep 30, 2005 4:29 pm

Well Mint, you are sure showing a poor ass attitude here.
Starting off with - why the hell do you feel the need to 'rip a few new ones'.
It is now quite obvious that the vast majority of people do not financially support a project or endeavor of this magnitude. If you want to spend your money on this, then you spend your money on this. It is certainly most ignorant and foolish of you to sit here and berate others. Oh, your time line, of one measly month, for a major project of this undertaking is minimal and foolish. You sir do not understand at all then how to prepare a proper business plan.
I am not going to sit here and type for a couple of hours. You spent virtually that whole post just attacking me and my opinions. Well, remember one thing - I am typing my opinion of why I felt that this project did not succeed. I was not in favor of it to start, so why should I contribute to it? I did not say anything previously, because why should I add any negativity to the project. Now that it has been cancelled and others have begun to express reasons for not going along with this project, I decided I would post my opinion. My opinion after the fact. You want to act and type like an ass, then go ahead and do so, but realize you are appearing to be the ass.

So go DUH DUH DUH yourself. You tried to run this project, you ran it very poorly, and this is the result. Go ahead and blame yourself for the ruinous result. Do not go and blame me or anybody else. A project manager needs to be responsible enough to take the blame for failure, as well as reap the rewards of success. You FAILED through your own lack of proper planning! BLAME yourself!

I have always considered MAGIC RARITIES and now MAGIC LIBRARY to be a resource, not a business. I came here initially just to see what new and wonderous promotion MTG cards were available, as I do not play, and do not see these cards otherwise.

One good thing I see coming out of this discussion now - I have heard many a negative thing about Mintcollector, and I always remained neutral or defended him, because I disbelieved what I was hearing. Now I realize that it was probably quite true. To those I defended Mint against, I will now say I am sorry. You were right, I have now been proven wrong.

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Post by Gryfalia » Fri Sep 30, 2005 4:47 pm

mintcollector wrote:I am just in simple disbelief that there are so few that can see the big picture and what this could have meant. For those of you just wishing to keep the site as is, so be it, as this is where things stand.
Perhaps some of us don't agree with your 'big picture and what this could have meant'.

This site is a resource..a wonderful resource of information and discussion about rarities.

It isn't, last I checked, about creating NEW rarities simply because we can. If I wanted that, I would support various proxy merchants who make their own 'sets'.

So the concept of having a very high quality, probably well-made (given John Avon) piece of art as a logo seemed to be mostly about 'making stuff that won't get us in trouble with WotC'.

So yeah, I suppose I am happy with the site as it stands now, because it's what I am looking for. It's the best place to find this information, bar none. And that almost entirely because of the work of Ralph, and to a lesser extent the rest of us for giving new information/scans/etc. That's a community.

If you want to make it something else, like an exclusive 'club' with matching T-Shirts or play-mats, that's up to you if you want to try, but don't get pissy at us because we might not agree with you.

If Ralph wants to try to move towards a more (for lack of a better term) 'marketable' entity (logo he can use, etc) for projects, that's fine too, it's his turf, but I can choose what I want to support, the site as it stands or the new vision.

Now, if someone was all gung-ho about the project, wanted the benefits (cool cards, playmats, whatever) but didn't want to pony up, that's a different issue...

Gryfalia

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Post by hammr7 » Fri Sep 30, 2005 5:07 pm

These are a few comments. I am someone who has a great deal of experience with contract negotiation. I also put time and effort into some background aspects of this project, yet did not offer a concrete up-front contribution. This was in part due to the runaway speed of the project ( from first consideration to death in less than one month!), the other was a lack of clarification on some loose ends.

I agree that the site needs its own artwork if we are ever to attempt any commercial or artistic product offerings. For reasons stated above, the current site artwork is unusable for such endeavors.

I publicly and privately discussed lower cost alternatives to utilizing John Aven. I do feel the pricing for the logo was steep given the forum's current size and also the lack of project specifics. As an example, one such specific was the logo size. We were told 300 dpi resolution, but without also knowing the final artwork size, it's impossible to know if the finished product would be acceptable for more than a logo (i.e. the backs of high quality tokens or other fund-raising appplications). These critical specifications need to be determined and understood well before a contract is ever instituted.

I was also concerned about potential "commercial allowances" that might be given by Ralph in gratitude to donors. I felt these might become divisive within the forum membership, or reflect badly if inappropriate commercial product offerings were made utilizing the forum logo. I was also concerned about the possibility of future royalty expectations by donors. If there were going to be any quid-pro-quo's resulting from logo project donations, I felt they needed to be specified in detail up front, to preclude any abuses or misunderstandings.

Finally, I was concerned that any negotiation would not be done between equals. Even if John Aven is a well known artist, he is still a businessman. I got the impression that we felt he was too important, too busy to bother, and that we needed to rush to contract before his calender filled. It was as if we should be thankful that he even considered working with us.

In any commercial endeavor, especially one that involves intellectual property, you need to do some legwork (specifications), and some serious discussion / negotiation up front, or else you are asking for trouble. Anything negotiated before the contract is implemented is included in the contract price. Anything discussed / described / negotiated after a contract is signed is an extra cost (this is where cost overruns occur). Until we can think of John Aven in the same business context as some guy with a booth at a local flea market, we are not ready to negotiate.

I was willing to proceed with John Aven as artist, based upon Ralph's desires. I had developed ideas to help raise the necessary funding. However, these ideas would have required approvals from both Ralphand John Aven, and would have required more specifications regarding the final artwork. I got none of these before the plug was pulled.

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Post by mintcollector » Fri Sep 30, 2005 7:25 pm

If you want to spend your money on this, then you spend your money on this. It is certainly most ignorant and foolish of you to sit here and berate others. Oh, your time line, of one measly month, for a major project of this undertaking is minimal and foolish. You sir do not understand at all then how to prepare a proper business plan.
Of course I wanted to contribute money on this. I, like many others here seemed to support the Textless Dual land project, along with it's predecessor the Logo project. There were many positive comments regarding doing both, and 24 out of members voting to make the Textless Dual land project Magic Library-endorsed. The question came into being, where did everyone go when it took time to act upon what they posted and voted on? I do realize you were against this whole process to start from, but your comments stating the timeline was poorly constructed, and there was all this negative comment on the project is not only unfounded, but a plain series of stupid lies. Again, you were against the project, but to come here and undermine what was done with outright bulls*** untruths is unbelievable. You must be a dummy-crat if I had to guess, as that political party act under the same mantra of idiocy.
So go DUH DUH DUH yourself. You tried to run this project, you ran it very poorly, and this is the result. Go ahead and blame yourself for the ruinous result. Do not go and blame me or anybody else. A project manager needs to be responsible enough to take the blame for failure, as well as reap the rewards of success. You FAILED through your own lack of proper planning! BLAME yourself!
Ass-leech: What should I have done dffferent since you seem to think you have all the answers? I spent hours on the phone with Ralph and another lengthy call with hammr7 on this. Things would have gone well as long as people put their money where their mouths were, and this is why things failed, not anything I did. Apparently you FAILED to read Ralph's cudos on what was done and how he himself does not understand why members gave up interest. I'd ask that you take time to read things before posting lies and untruths that make you look like the idiot you are really showing yourself to be.
One good thing I see coming out of this discussion now - I have heard many a negative thing about Mintcollector, and I always remained neutral or defended him, because I disbelieved what I was hearing. Now I realize that it was probably quite true. To those I defended Mint against, I will now say I am sorry. You were right, I have now been proven wrong.
Someone acts and looks like a moronic jackass, they are probably a moronic jackass. Sorry if I call them like I see them. I need no one to defend me, as I am we capable of out thinking any moroon who would dare challenge me when they are CLEARLY in the wrong. Oh and nice ass-leech poll.
If you want to make it something else, like an exclusive 'club' with matching T-Shirts or play-mats, that's up to you if you want to try, but don't get pissy at us because we might not agree with you.
Gryfalia: I see you stopped in your efforts to tell the difference between and Old Maid cards and Magic ones to take the time to write. Apparently you too are missing the point. There were 24 positive responses to the poll about making the Textless Dual land project a Magic-Library project. When it came to back the project up with money AND/OR ideas, no one came forward. The ideas at hand was Ralph's wishes and with him being busy with his school and maintaining the site as is, I volunteered to follow through on what Ralph wanted this to be. So this special club idea as you called it, was not my wishes, but what Ralph envisioned this project to be. I am not being accusatory making this statement, but just stating fact, as my goal was to carry the project out to Ralph's wishes. My goal was to be an aid on this. I really thought members here did want this and other projects to move forward. It is those members I am curious to hear from as to why nothing was done. As Ralph stated before, there is simply a question as to why there was a lack of interest after all the hype. My points to others, especially, silver.paladin, are that the comments they made where pointless and unfounded and easily debunked with a simple matter of READING THE POSTS. Now you can go back to trying to tell if that square of toilet paper with crayon on it is a real Magic card or not.

I would like to thank hammr7 for his efforts he did provide. I did not want to dredge out detailed specifics, but he was a great help in coming up with ideas to try and help fund the project by providing donation incentives. He also had experience in dealing with the printing process and did work into looking into what could be made as a result.

to be fair and complete, special thanks to:

hammr7 for provising helpful insight into the porject and for discussing alternatives for project direction
mahadishan for contributing
dragsamou for committing ro contribute (Ralph passed on your wishes)
diligalf for commiting to contribute
Celebrindor for commiting to contribute
and especially to Ralph for fiding the time in his busy schedule to still input and reply to my questions where it was needed.

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Post by flatmatt » Fri Sep 30, 2005 7:42 pm

mintcollector wrote:There were 24 positive responses to the poll about making the Textless Dual land project a Magic-Library project.
I believe you are misrepresenting the poll results. The poll was a choice between Magic Library proxies and not Magic Library proxies. It wasn't a poll of whether people supported the project, it was a poll of if the project were to happen, which should it be. There was no "don't do the project at all" option. And it's pretty clear to me, as I posted in that thread, that a product associated with some entity would be a lot more successful than not. But voting to make sure a major mistake like that wasn't made isn't the same as wholeheartedly supporting the plan.

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Post by mintcollector » Fri Sep 30, 2005 7:54 pm

flatmatt wrote:
mintcollector wrote:There were 24 positive responses to the poll about making the Textless Dual land project a Magic-Library project.
I believe you are misrepresenting the poll results. The poll was a choice between Magic Library proxies and not Magic Library proxies. It wasn't a poll of whether people supported the project, it was a poll of if the project were to happen, which should it be. There was no "don't do the project at all" option. And it's pretty clear to me, as I posted in that thread, that a product associated with some entity would be a lot more successful than not. But voting to make sure a major mistake like that wasn't made isn't the same as wholeheartedly supporting the plan.
Finally, someone making a valid point. I agree that things could have been seen in this light and if this is the way members understood the poll, then I can only state then that 24 members had an opinion that the project should be Magic Library endorsed. This obviously means that this many or less would have supported the project at all, and out of those I see the few that really acted in favor of the project. As stated, this project was doomed from the start then. I guess I just wasted my time trying to get something done for the site and specifically Ralph. It was also understood that not all members supported the project or any idea of it. I thought there may have been enough to pull something off. Reality obviously proved me wrong.

You see people, at least flattmatt made some intelligent rebuttal based on actual fact.

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Post by Archivist » Fri Sep 30, 2005 8:56 pm

mintcollector wrote:You see people, at least flattmatt made some intelligent rebuttal based on actual fact.
Mike, you are not in any place to say who's points are valid or not. The repeated strings of insults and obscenities coming from you has completely spoiled any positive contribution you tried to make on this project.

I think it's fair that, before we proceed, you either apologize for treating community members so disrespectfully or perhaps go back to quietly lurking.
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Post by mintcollector » Fri Sep 30, 2005 9:08 pm

I think it's fair that, before we proceed, you either apologize for treating community members so disrespectfully or perhaps go back to quietly lurking.
I don't respect the inane. Looks like I lurk. This thread is closed to me.

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Post by Ralph Herold » Sat Oct 01, 2005 2:34 am

I am sad that this total desaster had to take place in order to get a few answers. One might say that I am to blame, as I took the risk to enforce answers where I should have seen the trouble coming with them. To those who believe this, I wish to apologize. It is hard to take the right course of action in a matter where you are personally involved. Let us now calm down and learn from this incident, for there is something to learn for everybody.

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Post by Ralph Herold » Sat Oct 01, 2005 2:34 am

To wrap up the facts, there will be no logo project, as there is no longer any need to change the logo. The dual land project has died (even its initiator normalbrains has abandoned it), and there are no other projects in sight which require a legal logo.

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Post by Celebrindor » Sat Oct 01, 2005 3:11 am

Gryfalia wrote:
mintcollector wrote:I am just in simple disbelief that there are so few that can see the big picture and what this could have meant. For those of you just wishing to keep the site as is, so be it, as this is where things stand.
Perhaps some of us don't agree with your 'big picture and what this could have meant'.

This site is a resource..a wonderful resource of information and discussion about rarities.

It isn't, last I checked, about creating NEW rarities simply because we can. If I wanted that, I would support various proxy merchants who make their own 'sets'.

So the concept of having a very high quality, probably well-made (given John Avon) piece of art as a logo seemed to be mostly about 'making stuff that won't get us in trouble with WotC'.

So yeah, I suppose I am happy with the site as it stands now, because it's what I am looking for. It's the best place to find this information, bar none. And that almost entirely because of the work of Ralph, and to a lesser extent the rest of us for giving new information/scans/etc. That's a community.

If you want to make it something else, like an exclusive 'club' with matching T-Shirts or play-mats, that's up to you if you want to try, but don't get pissy at us because we might not agree with you.

If Ralph wants to try to move towards a more (for lack of a better term) 'marketable' entity (logo he can use, etc) for projects, that's fine too, it's his turf, but I can choose what I want to support, the site as it stands or the new vision.

Now, if someone was all gung-ho about the project, wanted the benefits (cool cards, playmats, whatever) but didn't want to pony up, that's a different issue...

Gryfalia
First of all, let me go on the record as saying I am not trying to take sides here or incite any more name calling. Also, I am not responding specifically to Gryfalia, nor agreeing or disagreeing with him, I am just quoting his post as a semi-decent starting point.

This started because several commercial sites were making crappy proxies. We knew we could do better, and after some (civilized) discussion, we decided on Dual Lands for a variety of reasons. In my opinion, no one was trying to make our site into something commercial. In making cool proxy cards, we were trying to do something as a community, something we could all be proud of, something we could make to say, hey look, we can do it too, we can do it better, something unique to us as a group. But hey, printing 1000 sets is more cost effective than printing 50. And the ones we sell could offset any money we would have to put up. Unfortunately, as others have pointed out, if we plan to sell them, we need a legal logo. Unfortunately, a professionally done logo is expensive. It is my personal belief that if we can just get the money for the logo and the dual lands, we can make that money back by selling things. The purposes of selling t-shirts would not be for profit, but to make back the money put in, and give Ralph some more money to support the site with. For example: I know of several websites that sell custom shirts. You give them a logo and thirty bucks and you get a shirt. Order more, pay less per shirt. If we HAD a logo, we could make shirts at will, which would be great. I love the site, and would love to wear a shirt bearing our logo to an event. I was ready and willing to put some money out to get the Dual Land project off the ground, and though I didn't particularly like the way the costs were rising, I was willing to put more money out for the logo project, just as a stepping-stone for the dual lands project.

I would suggest this: Since we want a logo that will be WOTC-legal and still look good, how about we allow people to submit sketches? I'm sure some of the sites amateur artists could come up with some nice art, and really, this is our only alternative to high priced custom art, or what we have now.

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Post by TerraFrost » Mon Oct 03, 2005 8:35 am

Ok, I have kept quiet on this subject for some time now, but the latest comments have shown sheer stupidity amongst members that I find horribly laughable.
Just because someone's reason isn't good enough for you doesn't mean it isn't good enough for them. Besides, Ralph's question wasn't "why did mintcollector donate?" but rather "why didn't anyone else?"

Just something to keep in mind next time something like this comes up...

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