Inquiry about Ebay Seller of Altered Art

magic-belgium · Post by **magic-belgium** » Mon Dec 03, 2007 6:56 pm

Thanks Alexis...

It is the same kind of problem with Fun Cards. Lots of players like to make them for their own pleasure.

When something like altered cards happens, it means the game is a real institution.

Look at Barbie. She is dressed with extravagant dresses (sometimes by Haute Couture designers). And these Barbies are sold several thousands of dollars. The buyers enjoy custom made Barbie that is not "industrial".

Post by **dragsamou** » Mon Dec 03, 2007 7:10 pm

Hi.
Does any Members connected to WOTC/Hasbro know Exactely what's the specific law regarding any types of Altered Art sales on Ebay or somewhere else.I will be interested to find out.

magic-belgium · Post by **magic-belgium** » Mon Dec 03, 2007 7:15 pm

I can ask. I'll let you know as soon as I get an answer.

yawg07 · Post by **yawg07** » Mon Dec 03, 2007 9:59 pm

I am speak07 :D I have been doing full-arts for a while now, too.

I sold these ...

And I am selling these ...

And have done a bunch for fun that people offer on ...

I also do commissions! :D

magic-belgium · Post by **magic-belgium** » Mon Dec 03, 2007 11:21 pm

These are really nice !

Can the members give their opinion on the borderless cards ? We should open a poll about them.

Did you scan each of the ones you made 07 ?

yawg07 · Post by **yawg07** » Mon Dec 03, 2007 11:34 pm

Yes, but I have more.
And my gf is ca_chandler, she does really great ones too! lots on ebay

MAGICSALEMAN · Post by **MAGICSALEMAN** » Tue Dec 04, 2007 12:31 am

That's not a problems to talk about them in a forum.
Each day, I write in the search engine of ebay Altered Mtg and each day I have some matching, like to close some ebay account when some "strange" sellers sell Alpha boosters box, brand new never open... with strange feedbacks...

I want to say it is our (my work too) work to protect our Hobby (you too in this way) and to protect the people who lives from their work, our work to protect the work of the artist.
If thoses "artists can make some beautiful arts why do they by themself with their own arts ?
To hard ?
Effectively it is more easy to use works of other ones....
As mentionned before, the value of those kind of cards goes sometimes higher than the original ones. (EVEN ART PROOF limited to 50 worldwide generaly)
That's why Wotc has prohibited recentely software to make Mtg cards who looks like real ones.
Tomorrow I will inject on ebay real artist work of Wotc that I support myself, original arts draw by some real mtg artists themself and I know for SURE that the value of them will not hoes higher that those altered card (NOT Altered by the artist himself ...).
Thats' a pitty for me, wotc and the Artists.
Force of Will at 59.99$...
I don't want to create a bad feeling between us but I want just to react and to explain my dissapointment when I see that.
Who's gonna be the next one tomorrow to use Mtg art for his own profit ???
That's just some peaceful words for each one to make his own opinion.

For me I prefer a beautiful sketch from the artist himself on the back side of a Artist proof card.
There you have in your hand some real mtg spirit ...
Each one can have his own opinion and if you want to take the risk like we said in french "2 personnes averties en valent mieux qu'une"
Cheers

For Infos :
Wotc Terms of use :

http://ww2.wizards.com/Company/Default. ... egalNotice

PolarBearGod · Post by **PolarBearGod** » Tue Dec 04, 2007 7:19 am

MAGICSALEMAN wrote:That's not a problems to talk about them in a forum.
Each day, I write in the search engine of ebay Altered Mtg and each day I have some matching, like to close some ebay account when some "strange" sellers sell Alpha boosters box, brand new never open... with strange feedbacks...

I want to say it is our (my work too) work to protect our Hobby (you too in this way) and to protect the people who lives from their work, our work to protect the work of the artist.
If thoses "artists can make some beautiful arts why do they by themself with their own arts ?
To hard ?
Effectively it is more easy to use works of other ones....
As mentionned before, the value of those kind of cards goes sometimes higher than the original ones. (EVEN ART PROOF limited to 50 worldwide generaly)
That's why Wotc has prohibited recentely software to make Mtg cards who looks like real ones.
Tomorrow I will inject on ebay real artist work of Wotc that I support myself, original arts draw by some real mtg artists themself and I know for SURE that the value of them will not hoes higher that those altered card (NOT Altered by the artist himself ...).
Thats' a pitty for me, wotc and the Artists.
Force of Will at 59.99$...
I don't want to create a bad feeling between us but I want just to react and to explain my dissapointment when I see that.
Who's gonna be the next one tomorrow to use Mtg art for his own profit ???
That's just some peaceful words for each one to make his own opinion.

For me I prefer a beautiful sketch from the artist himself on the back side of a Artist proof card.
There you have in your hand some real mtg spirit ...
Each one can have his own opinion and if you want to take the risk like we said in french "2 personnes averties en valent mieux qu'une"
Cheers

For Infos :
Wotc Terms of use :

http://ww2.wizards.com/Company/Default. ... egalNotice

I have a bit of difficulty understand your broken english but for the most part, it seems that you have a gripe about the altered art cards - am I right?

Some of your statements are missing some IMHO's before them, because they certainly are that. Let's try and take on some of these "gripes".

MAGICSALEMAN wrote:I want to say it is our (my work too) work to protect our Hobby (you too in this way) and to protect the people who lives from their work, our work to protect the work of the artist.

I'm pretty sure that WotC has a department of individuals who are paid to deal with fraudulent or counterfeit or illegal cards and/or items pertaining to Magic. It is NOT our work to protect our hobby and the people who make their living from the work of the artists. We can be kind enough to take time out and report events that may appear or outright look illegal, but it is certainly not something that is our work.

MAGICSALEMAN wrote:If thoses "artists can make some beautiful arts why do they by themself with their own arts ?
To hard ?
Effectively it is more easy to use works of other ones....

The people who take it upon themselves to alter the art of cards, do so because they have the skill and talent to do so. Under your suggestion, they should redo the entire art of the card. Well guess what? The art you see on a card is not created at that size. It's done on a larger platform and reduced to make it fit the card size.

If you attempt to erase the art box and fill it in with custom art, then the end result will not be better than the original, but instead will be along the same lines, in the case of the extended art alterations. Artists like Nerea and Omar have done what you've claimed, but there's a demand for different types of cards. Some like the extended art and some like the complete revamp of the art and still others like minor alterations and such.

Is it easier? Well, that depends on how much work you put into it. The Lion and cards yawg did are amazing. It's not easy and from my understanding, it takes lots of skill and talent to do what he and others do.

MAGICSALEMAN wrote:That's why Wotc has prohibited recentely software to make Mtg cards who looks like real ones.

WotC knows about a program called Photoshop and PSD files created that can allow users to create cards that are identical to real cards except for one big issue. In order to duplicate a card, you have to have the correct card stock, precision card cutting hardware, and proper printing osftware and hardware. There are tons of ways to duplicate cards by the look, but you're not going to duplicate a real card and pass it off successfully without the things I mentioned.

In closing, artists proofs aren't tournament legal, but often enough, the cards shown altered are legal. They're like foils and "pimp" cards. They're appealing to the eye, different, and fun. I've even witnessed some artists who are flattered by the works of the alterations.

magic-belgium · Post by **magic-belgium** » Tue Dec 04, 2007 8:50 am

yawg07 wrote:Yes, but I have more.
And my gf is ca_chandler, she does really great ones too! lots on ebay

Yes she does ! Catty besides is a very nice person to deal with !

In my humble opinion, I think that some people here would like to make as much (or more) money than the altered art themselves.

If the prices skyrocket like this, it is only because the art is pretty well made, and the idea is really good.

MTG collectors are better things to do than collect crap most of the time, right ?

I saw some Original Artists altered arts go for $600 on Ebay last year. This is amazing. But this is what makes MTG so special and lasting over the years.

Our "job" is to keep on buying MTG, which we do pretty well.
I was the one to buy most of the altered art. And spending the money I spend on MTG each month, I don't feel guilty to buy these altered art, because WOTC makes a good living on what I spend. Period.

As Belinda Carlisle said "Live your Life be Free" !

MAGICSALEMAN · Post by **MAGICSALEMAN** » Tue Dec 04, 2007 9:07 am

Hi PolarbearGold

Polarbear wrote :

- I have a bit of difficulty understand your broken english but for the most part, it seems that you have a gripe about the altered art cards - am I right?

Yes effectively, I'm an artist myself and to make money easily with the works of other ones that doesn't enter in my head...

I want to say more clearely it is "somewhere our work" (not a work of course but more a self choice to make) to protect and to reject this kind of Copyright fraud. If you find one day something strange about mtg, if you want to preserve, to protect other nice guys who have the same hobby, and if you want to have a more secure and safe site (ebay is not that kind), I think there is a personnal choice to make.
I'm not a hunter but when I see w<ith chance those kind of items, I must react because for me it is a "open door" to a complete nonsense.

You say :

The people who take it upon themselves to alter the art of cards, do so because they have the skill and talent to do so. Under your suggestion, they should redo the entire art of the card. Well guess what? The art you see on a card is not created at that size. It's done on a larger platform and reduced to make it fit the card size.

I'm can draw and I have the talent to work 5 minutes with paintshop and to sell a altered Force of will from Terese Nielsen for example at 59.99$
If I want to go on hollidays again this year I begin tomorrow $:-\'$

Those altered pictures altered by Terese are sell round 19.99$.
Search the error ?

With software all is more easy Polarbeargod...

In a previous Topic I have show a textless incinerate done by me it is now the New PR card from this month (art from Zoltan)....

Duplications is easy, more easy than you think.
Look on ebay china, YEAH Alpha P9 NM ... great ! No reserve !
Of course Wotc has delivered Alpha boxes and Beta boxes there in 1993. $:-\'$
I think I 'm gonna by an offset printers for Christmas for my cave ...

Of course that Art Proof are not legaly tournanement, but imagine a tournament in a Wotc Challenge.., a table, and a shiny seller who sell altered cards from Wotc artist done by itself.
Full of people, whaou great done, 50$ I take two !

And at 10 meters front of him, for example C.Rush. alone..., trying to sell one of his art proof card (the same) at 10$.
And nobody... of course he is perhaps flattered by the works of the alterations but not a big scales like this I think.

Draw for your friends for you, but don't make it a easy way to win money.

Your choice is finaly in your hands.

Post by **dragsamou** » Tue Dec 04, 2007 9:20 am

MAGICSALEMAN wrote:For me I prefer a beautiful sketch from the artist himself on the back side of a Artist proof card.
There you have in your hand some real mtg spirit ...
For Infos :
Wotc Terms of use :
http://ww2.wizards.com/Company/Default. ... egalNotice

Hi Eric.
As I'm a Huge Collector of Artist Proof, Alterations, and this for years as I didn't wait for the hype, and I even own the First Alterations of some MTG Artists,Homemade cards,etc...Few things comes to my mind.Regarding Alterations, in fact very few Artists are doing so, and out of these few, extremely few Great Alterations.To my eyes, Ron Spencer and Terese Nielsen are the Greatest, John Avon, Dan Frazier are the Worstest

I have read again WOTC Terms of use, and sorry, one more time, I didn't find any answers regarding the fact that Alterations are Illegal.To my knowledge,Alterations are done on Real MTG Card, bought from WOTC,in most of the cases the "Spirit" of the Artist have been kept, and these Alterations are doing a Great advertising for WOTC/Hasbro, as you can't deny that at the end, they do Promote Magic The Gathering and are used in Legal Tournaments.That's why,I would really want to know exactely in which way those are Illegal.

MAGICSALEMAN · Post by **MAGICSALEMAN** » Tue Dec 04, 2007 10:18 am

Hello Alexis

If it is not specialy specify in the Wotc terms of use, it is a automatic and general international law of copyright protection.

You can find, for example, here some informations about thoses international laws :

http://www.sabam.be/gd/index.html

Visual / Pictures Protections.
On the left some other links....

Or here :

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Authors'_rights

Authors' rights are internationally protected by the Berne Convention for the Protection of Literary and Artistic Works and by other similar treatiesce 1886...
There's a lot of links about that and explanations.

Usually each countries have his own Protected Copyright Society.
For example Belgim (Sabam),
France (Sacem I think),
US (United States Copyright Office I think)

Link : http://www.copyright.gov

Tones of hard words to read.
Have fun

magic-belgium · Post by **magic-belgium** » Tue Dec 04, 2007 10:40 am

There must be a difference made between "a new industry" and a few cards drawn.

Everyone knows that Artists get money ONCE and for all for their drawings. I was told €1500 roughly for one drawing. But it also depends if it will be used for Fat Packs, promotional items... So it can be less too.

I'm sure that some of the artists are flattered by how the cards they drew gets altered.

A card is worth nothing basically $3.20/15 or less if the expansion was produced years ago.

If a card gets altered, it means the card is popular, hence the artist is popular. The more popular the artist, the more he/she will work in the future.

I totally understand your position as an artist, but when you are successful (I wish you the best for that), I'm sure you won't get mad because someone alters (quite beautifully) one of your artwork.

WOTC's policy regarding artworks and artists leads to these alterations of cards (MTG is the only game to have APs and to promote its artists like that). These alterations become quite logic to me. There is nothing shocking to me.

agzz · Post by **agzz** » Tue Dec 04, 2007 10:52 am

Eric, again as in the old topic:
Why do you go pulling producing fake cards in to the disussion, "Copyright fraud", offset printers and so on?

This is not about producing fake cards and/or trying to pass these cards out as something they are not. Also is none of the sellers claiming they are made by the original artist.

If you could stay on the topic and stop being a zealot maybe you could be taken seriously. As of now I cant see that you can be, sorry.
I am not interested in any of this home made alternations, but you are yanking my chain.

As for your example with C.Rush, it justs falls on the fact that there is nothing stopping him (or other artists) to alter non AP cards, is there?

Oh, and could you please point me to where I get TN-altered Fows for $20? Thanks.

MAGICSALEMAN · Post by **MAGICSALEMAN** » Tue Dec 04, 2007 2:51 pm

Don't understand you agzz...
Ecah of us explain is opinion that's the avantage of an adult and constructive relationship between us.
It's a poster from Terese that she has made some years ago.

Contact her through the link of his website.

Extract for eveyone :

EXTREME ALTERATIONS F.A.Q.

If I'd like to have a set of four cards altered do they all have to be the same card?

No, definitely not. However, the majority of cards people want done are Force of Will's and Fact or Fiction's, but I welcome the opportunity to alter any of the cards that I've illustrated.

Will you paint on other artists cards for me?

No. I'd prefer not to do that as I don't want to run the risk of offending any of my artist friends.

Are the cards still tournament legal?

The last I was told was that they are legal as long as I don't paint over the casting cost or the name of the card, so I steer my brush away from those areas.

Source : T.Nielsen website.

The rest of explanations of the Website of Terese

Those altered Force of Will was a big poster limited edition and she does herself her own alteration of the cards you send to her.
Ask her she has perhaps some yet in stock but not sure ...

http://www.daydream-graphics.com/artist ... ntings.htm

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Inquiry about Ebay Seller of Altered Art

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