Black Lotus AP and fake APs.

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paris
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Post by paris » Sat Feb 07, 2015 4:55 am

The cutting of uncut sheets has now made me lose almost all interest in getting miscuts, unsigned beta/CE artist proofs, and now exodus test prints.

markers
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Post by markers » Sat Feb 07, 2015 8:12 am

paris wrote:The cutting of uncut sheets has now made me lose almost all interest in getting miscuts, unsigned beta/CE artist proofs, and now exodus test prints.
@paris: I wouldn't stop at unsigned proofs...In a couple of years most of these fake proofs will be signed by the artist or "artist".

I noticed the same thing with autographs and alters on normal cards. Custom alters (not by the artist) on artist signed cards are sold on Ebay. Yes, the sellers might mention it in their auction but what about the buyer when he sells it?

Our hobby to hunt down special cards is getting more and more difficult. Not only the scarcity of the cards but the chances of fetching fakes really spoils all the fun.

The more the cards are worth the lower the barrier for certain people to do something like that. I understand the anger and I also understand people who want to "get out".
Signed card collector

Alpha - AL, ST, EX, UD, REV, UNL, LO & MO: 100% signed
Grand Total signed cards: >43'000

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dragsamou
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Post by dragsamou » Sat Feb 07, 2015 3:22 pm

mystical_tutor wrote: Alexis? Do you have a list of "never on this web site" names? If you do I request you put this guy on it.

Gary
Hi Gary

I don't, but no need.
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berkumps
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Post by berkumps » Sat Feb 07, 2015 5:19 pm

I've heard some artists won't sign blank proofs that people bring to them. I can get behind that decision.

BreakingRalter
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Post by BreakingRalter » Sat Feb 07, 2015 6:24 pm

berkumps wrote:I've heard some artists won't sign blank proofs that people bring to them. I can get behind that decision.
Definitely true, but artists make exceptions. I was behind a guy inline that brought an artist an unsigned proof. The artist questioned him about where he obtained it, as it was one of his proofs that had been stolen a number of years ago. The artist informed him that he normally does not sign or sketch such proofs, but made an exception as this person clearly obtained the proof in ignorance and was remorseful.

I guess the takeaway is that while artists do have their own code, its easy to make exceptions and break them, especially in-person and to fans who may not know exactly what they are doing and just waited in a lengthy line.

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mystical_tutor
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Post by mystical_tutor » Sat Feb 07, 2015 7:15 pm

As I have mentioned a couple times there were complete sets of "AP" cards sent out from WotC to a limited number of people to get input on what should be considered for modification or elimination when Magic really started to blow up all over the place and was drawing criticism from religious and parent groups because of the satanic/sensual artwork. These cards are in no way distinguishable from "beta" APs as they were made at CM from the same plates. I would guess some of these are surficeing by now as some of the original recipiants may have passed on or just got tired of them.
I got mine in Korea and wish I had just wrapped up the box and stashed it away...sigh.
Artist code: I have had a couple of interesting chats with Douglas Shuler, one of which was about the Serra Angel AP he got shorted on by someone at WotC. He is not inclined to sign any apparent APs of that card as he numbered the few he did get.
I would like to be standing by if someone walked up to his table with the one from this sheet and asked him to sign it.......

Gary
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mystical_tutor
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Post by mystical_tutor » Sat Feb 07, 2015 7:35 pm

Markers and paris;

From the sidelines I would say, don't throw the towel in. Instead become more expert in your field so you can help the rest of us by identifying what we would never realize was bad. You probably know more by accident than most of know on purpose about APs and sigs.
Don't let dirtbags spoil the collecting world.
The same thing happened wirh Honma golf clubs on ebay.

Gary

markers wrote:
paris wrote:The cutting of uncut sheets has now made me lose almost all interest in getting miscuts, unsigned beta/CE artist proofs, and now exodus test prints.
@paris: I wouldn't stop at unsigned proofs...In a couple of years most of these fake proofs will be signed by the artist or "artist".

I noticed the same thing with autographs and alters on normal cards. Custom alters (not by the artist) on artist signed cards are sold on Ebay. Yes, the sellers might mention it in their auction but what about the buyer when he sells it?

Our hobby to hunt down special cards is getting more and more difficult. Not only the scarcity of the cards but the chances of fetching fakes really spoils all the fun.

The more the cards are worth the lower the barrier for certain people to do something like that. I understand the anger and I also understand people who want to "get out".
Gary Adkison
Father of a former Wizards of the Coast janitor.

Knowledge is proud because it thinks it knows so much; wisdom is humble because it realizes it knows so little.

markers
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Post by markers » Sun Feb 08, 2015 2:44 pm

mystical_tutor wrote:Markers and paris;

From the sidelines I would say, don't throw the towel in. Instead become more expert in your field so you can help the rest of us by identifying what we would never realize was bad. You probably know more by accident than most of know on purpose about APs and sigs.
Don't let dirtbags spoil the collecting world.
The same thing happened wirh Honma golf clubs on ebay.

Gary

markers wrote:
paris wrote:The cutting of uncut sheets has now made me lose almost all interest in getting miscuts, unsigned beta/CE artist proofs, and now exodus test prints.
@paris: I wouldn't stop at unsigned proofs...In a couple of years most of these fake proofs will be signed by the artist or "artist".

I noticed the same thing with autographs and alters on normal cards. Custom alters (not by the artist) on artist signed cards are sold on Ebay. Yes, the sellers might mention it in their auction but what about the buyer when he sells it?

Our hobby to hunt down special cards is getting more and more difficult. Not only the scarcity of the cards but the chances of fetching fakes really spoils all the fun.

The more the cards are worth the lower the barrier for certain people to do something like that. I understand the anger and I also understand people who want to "get out".
No worries Gary....I won't stop but the times when you could buy signed cards without worries are definitely over.
Signed card collector

Alpha - AL, ST, EX, UD, REV, UNL, LO & MO: 100% signed
Grand Total signed cards: >43'000

I have a Youtube Channel

NeRo
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Post by NeRo » Sun Feb 08, 2015 8:48 pm

markers wrote:I won't stop but the times when you could buy signed cards without worries are definitely over.
The first custom altered card signed by an artist I know of, which you mentioned before, was a Force of Will by BigUp several years ago which he first altered and which was then signed by Terese. Most stunning thing was that it was signed over parts of the alternation making it look legit. I was pretty puzzled why she would ever sign such a card ... especially since altered FoWs are kind of her own trademark.

Altering a card which already has a signature on it is just shady. Luckily there aren't that many cards one could fake ... yet this will sure cause some grief in the future.


I feel like that particular niche becoming that popular (public opinion completely changed over the last 2-3 years) which results exploitation is pretty bad for everyone. Fake signatures everywhere, fake alternations and insanely high prices.

AbsolutAlphas
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Post by AbsolutAlphas » Mon Feb 09, 2015 4:53 pm

We should have a page on this site that has pictures from all of bigger cards that were cut and auctioned. That way, when the cards start re-appearing on ebay, we'll be able to spot them and let people know. Here are links:

http://www.ebay.com/itm/1x-Beta-Black-L ... 2c9591b268

http://www.ebay.com/itm/1x-Beta-Ancestr ... 2c91d82e3c
http://www.ebay.com/itm/1x-Beta-Timetwi ... 2c94ae56e3
http://www.ebay.com/itm/1x-Beta-Time-Wa ... 5416e0a767

http://www.ebay.com/itm/1x-Beta-Mox-Sap ... 58b8bfdac7
http://www.ebay.com/itm/1x-Beta-Mox-Rub ... 58ba4ec4f9
http://www.ebay.com/itm/1x-Beta-Mox-Jet ... 2c9252f7bc
http://www.ebay.com/itm/1x-Beta-Mox-Pea ... 54166a838b
http://www.ebay.com/itm/1x-Beta-Mox-Eme ... 54174c7bbc

http://www.ebay.com/itm/1x-Beta-Bayou-A ... 58b9cbb70f
http://www.ebay.com/itm/1x-Beta-Tundra- ... 5414eb19f9
http://www.ebay.com/itm/1x-Beta-Undergr ... 2c9520da45
http://www.ebay.com/itm/1x-Beta-Taiga-A ... 2c9520d9b7
http://www.ebay.com/itm/1x-Beta-Volcani ... 5417c261fe
http://www.ebay.com/itm/1x-Beta-Plateau ... 2c92db91ad
http://www.ebay.com/itm/1x-Beta-Badland ... 58bacf1b56
http://www.ebay.com/itm/1x-Beta-Savanna ... 5416e0a6a1
http://www.ebay.com/itm/1x-Beta-Tropica ... 58bbb6a420
http://www.ebay.com/itm/1x-Beta-Scrubla ... 2c9591b8dd

http://www.ebay.com/itm/1x-Beta-Time-Va ... 58bd199122
http://www.ebay.com/itm/1x-Beta-Serra-A ... 5415f91c28
http://www.ebay.com/itm/1x-Beta-Gauntle ... 5415730ddf
http://www.ebay.com/itm/1x-Beta-Chaos-O ... 2c9252f55d
http://www.ebay.com/itm/1x-Beta-Birds-o ... 58b9cbb741
http://www.ebay.com/itm/1x-Beta-Mana-Va ... 2c91d82fdd
http://www.ebay.com/itm/1x-Beta-Forcefi ... 2c91d82efc

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mystical_tutor
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Post by mystical_tutor » Mon Feb 09, 2015 8:20 pm

In case someone interested does not know, Terese has radically changed her siniture. I bought $1200 of AP from her at GenCon (trying to encourage her to keep coming) and was interested in the change. The FOW she modified for me years ago had her old sig on it so she added the new one just for kicks. Good thing FOW is so well known as you can't read any of the text now... LOL.

Some sigs are so crude anyone could forge them. Some are pieces of art in themselves (Randy Gallegous) as well as Terese's new sig. Of course some are skilled enough to do anything.
NeRo wrote:
markers wrote:I won't stop but the times when you could buy signed cards without worries are definitely over.
The first custom altered card signed by an artist I know of, which you mentioned before, was a Force of Will by BigUp several years ago which he first altered and which was then signed by Terese. Most stunning thing was that it was signed over parts of the alternation making it look legit. I was pretty puzzled why she would ever sign such a card ... especially since altered FoWs are kind of her own trademark.

Altering a card which already has a signature on it is just shady. Luckily there aren't that many cards one could fake ... yet this will sure cause some grief in the future.


I feel like that particular niche becoming that popular (public opinion completely changed over the last 2-3 years) which results exploitation is pretty bad for everyone. Fake signatures everywhere, fake alternations and insanely high prices.
Gary Adkison
Father of a former Wizards of the Coast janitor.

Knowledge is proud because it thinks it knows so much; wisdom is humble because it realizes it knows so little.

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mystical_tutor
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Post by mystical_tutor » Mon Feb 09, 2015 8:38 pm

AbsolutAlphas wrote:We should have a page on this site that has pictures from all of bigger cards that were cut and auctioned. That way, when the cards start re-appearing on ebay, we'll be able to spot them and let people know. Here are links:
At first blush I really like this idea.
I am cautious however about using the auction source pictures on the board. We don't need a corporate giant getting pissed off at our little piece of history even if all we are trying to do is document facts.

I wonder if -kid icarus- would share his original posting pictures with us with permission to publish them. Probably there is a better chance of ISIS denouncing Muhammad but it might be worth a try.

problem with the links is that they may not last long and I'm betting there is some legal protection for them.

Gary
Gary Adkison
Father of a former Wizards of the Coast janitor.

Knowledge is proud because it thinks it knows so much; wisdom is humble because it realizes it knows so little.

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