Few questions about the Update.

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dragsamou
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Post by dragsamou » Mon Apr 12, 2010 3:05 pm

macone wrote:Rise of the Eldrazi has colorless instants ,sorceries and creatures.

Which are they categorized into? Multicolor?
Hi Masaaki
What's that Colorless cards? As you know, I don't play, and don't collect any new Edition or Extension.But, by beeing logical, it certainly means that the card has no color, in that case, I will create Colorless in the Color subsection of cards.Let see if some Promos will belong to that category.
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Post by aleksandr » Mon Apr 12, 2010 9:55 pm

The RoE pre-release promo is a colorless Eldrazi, so I guess it happened sooner, rather than later.

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Post by dragsamou » Tue Apr 13, 2010 7:40 am

aleksandr wrote:The RoE pre-release promo is a colorless Eldrazi, so I guess it happened sooner, rather than later.
Hi Aleksandr
So, I'm on my way to add Colorless in the program :wink:
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Post by mystical_tutor » Wed Apr 14, 2010 4:03 pm

Two comments to share a point of view.

Colors: I refer you to the Comprehensive rules:

105. Colors

105.1. There are five colors in the Magic game: white, blue, black, red, and green.

105.2. An object can be one or more of the five colors, or it can be no color at all. An object is the color or colors of the mana symbols in its mana cost, regardless of the color of its frame. See rule 202.2.

105.2a A monocolored object is exactly one of the five colors.

105.2b A multicolored object is two or more of the five colors.

105.2c A colorless object has no color.

105.3. <snip>

105.4. If a player is asked to choose a color, he or she must choose one of the five colors. “Multicolored” is not a color. Neither is “colorless.”

Therefore, by strict definition there are only:

WUBRG cards, each of their color.
Colorless cards (NC) ("Land" is not a color. "Artifact" is not a color).

As a collector I add one more category:

Multicolor. This includes Gold, Hybrid and most Split cards. Gold as M, Hybrid and MH and all split cards I list twice in my data base using each half as a unique card. Unhinged messed me up.....

I have not seen a card that requires purple mana to cast it so do not believe there is such a thing as a purple card. The color of an expansion symbol to distinguish it needs to be addressed under expansions and not under color.

With the arrival of colorless spells the above catagories that I use are unaffected.
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Post by dragsamou » Wed Apr 14, 2010 4:29 pm

Hi Gary
Emrakul, the Aeons Torn 15
Legendary Creature - Eldrazi Mythic Rare
Emrakul, the Aeons Torn can't be countered.
When you cast Emrakul, take an extra turn after this one.
Flying, protection from colored spells, Annihilator 6
When Emrakul is put into a graveyard from anywhere, its owner shuffles his or her graveyard into his or her library.
Illus. Mark Tedin #4/248 15/15

This card should be the Prerelease Promo, so in which Color category, should it be, if I took off Colorless

Image
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Post by Ertai's Familiar » Wed Apr 14, 2010 4:40 pm

Regarding the new colorless cards, why or rather where was a card like Ghostfire filed under before? I would assume that is where these should go also. If there is no colorless section, I suppose they should be filed with artifacts as these are also colorless.
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Post by dragsamou » Wed Apr 14, 2010 5:10 pm

Ertai's Familiar wrote:Regarding the new colorless cards, why or rather where was a card like Ghostfire filed under before? I would assume that is where these should go also. If there is no colorless section, I suppose they should be filed with artifacts as these are also colorless.
Hi
Ghostfire was in the Red Color, as the card is having a red mana symbol.
But the Emrakul is another case, it's not an Artifact and it's not a land, so we will see in which category WOTC will put this one, at that time, I will either put it in Colorless that I created or where it supposed to belong.
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Post by aleksandr » Wed Apr 14, 2010 7:28 pm

Gary, I agree with you from a strictly rules point of view. There are 5 colors of mana, period.

However, from a card sorting and organizing point of view, you have to be a bit more flexible I think.

You would have your standard WUBRG groupings and then a group, or number of groups of multi-color cards (I would personally keep gold, hybrid, and split cards separate).

And then we have our "colorless" cards which before RoE were limited to colorless artifacts and lands.

Whilst I understand that Artifact and Land are not colors, or lack of colors, per se, I cannot think of a better way to organize physical cards (or a database of cards) though. If someone is searching for a card to build a deck, for example, they are going to want to search for cards of their chosen color(s), cards of no color that can be used in their deck (e.g. artifacts), and lands, each separately.

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Post by berkumps » Wed Apr 14, 2010 9:58 pm

I think this argument comes down to the distinction between card type, and card color. For example, the current categories for rarities are:

Image

As mentioned, Artifact is not a color, but a type. Truly, there should be a card type category, which would indicate Artifact or Land, etc., along with a color category which would contain (as previously discussed): WUBRG + colorless + multicolor/hybrid/split

Unfortunately, this would also mean a HUGE update (to every entry up 'til now). I'm not volunteering for that duty 8-[

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Post by mystical_tutor » Thu Apr 15, 2010 9:51 am

dragsamou wrote:This card should be the Prerelease Promo, so in which Color category, should it be, if I took off Colorless
I am very sorry my comments were unclear. I was trying to say that I have always used a colorless category for card sorting. I call mine NC (no color) but that is not important. Each of the WUBRG colors has its own piece of the storage space and on my data base I can sort out "red" cards.

As mentioned Artifact and Land are card types just as Instant and Creature. This is all specified very carefully in the MTG rules because every little detail has to be written out or competitive players take advantage of any loop hole. A lot of people do sort cards that way even though it is inconsistent.

For collection purposes I don't think it is important or even useful to catalogue cards by card types. That can be left to deck builders.

At one time WotC sorted all cards by: set/edition > alphabetically by name. I still like that because of the colorful appearance it makes on a page--rather than, say, all black (their checklists are still done this way despite the cards being serial numbered by color>alphabetically by name).

I noticed long ago this inconsistency on the board but as berkumps points out it would be a massive change to make it right and already I probably talk too much. I think this should be done at some time--right along with taking "rarity" off of the Promo cards as they don't have the same rarity as their original card did. I would be happy to go through and make those changes if I had the guidance to do it.

On a board like this where we want to organize and catalogue cards our needs are a little different than the DCI rules for play--however--we need to follow those designations as much as we can to be consistent.

Gary

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Post by dragsamou » Thu Apr 15, 2010 10:07 am

mystical_tutor wrote:right along with taking "rarity" off of the Promo cards as they don't have the same rarity as their original card did. I would be happy to go through and make those changes if I had the guidance to do it.
Hi Gary
So we are fine, as I added the Colorless in the program.Regarding Promo Cards, I really don't see why a Common Normal card, should not be a Common if it's a Promo Card, if I understand No promo cards should have a Rarity in that case, but getting a "Rare" Foil Judge Gift Cards Polluted Delta, is not the same as getting a "Common" Memory Lapse, as a Collector, I put definately Rarity into the different Promos, like with the Normal cards.
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Post by mystical_tutor » Thu Apr 15, 2010 5:17 pm

dragsamou wrote:So we are fine, as I added the Colorless in the program.Regarding Promo Cards, I really don't see why a Common Normal card, should not be a Common if it's a Promo Card, if I understand No promo cards should have a Rarity in that case, but getting a "Rare" Foil Judge Gift Cards Polluted Delta, is not the same as getting a "Common" Memory Lapse, as a Collector, I put definately Rarity into the different Promos, like with the Normal cards.
Alexis, apples and oranges. This is a dangerous slippery slope. Rarity values assigned by WotC are relative categories and only meaningful within the set printed. It only tells you how that card relates in quantity to other cards in the same set. An U1 from AN is NOT the same as an Uncommon from Ice Age.

Those rarity categories have no relationship to anything in the world of promo cards. Dark Ritual, a scarce (how scarce--who knows [and is telling]) Judge Gift card is listed as "Common" on the site. However, in promo cards, overall, what is it? At least very scarce. Then, compared to Magic cards overall what is it? Mythic Rare? Compared to other Judge Gift cards? Man I won't even guess as I'm sure the printing of Judge Gift cards changes year by year depending on the number of DCI judges in the system. Player Reward cards have two rarities only. One for 20 events and one for 5 events.

Because there are some cards that we will never have a good idea of how many were made we should avoid speculating by simply giving them a generic rarity of "special" or "promo" or nothing at all (my vote). This also takes care of unknowns between languages. I have no facts but I bet there are a lot more English language pre-release cards than any one other language and I'll bet there are noticeable differences between printings of non English languages such as (a guess here) Japanese verses French. In my thinking a French Pre-release card is rarer than an English one--but how much--I have no idea and can ONLY speculate.

If we were to assign a guess rarity to promo cards we would need to back it up with some kind of logic in an explanatory note someplace that would say something like "Issue #2 of the Armada comics had a publication of xxxx but because a large number of these cards appeared outside of the comics themselves we estimate that this is a plentiful card" or "In general Judge Gift cards are printed in limited quantity and as there were XXXX DCI judges in 200x these cards are considered Scarce"

You can see that could be a real pain in the tender place. Not only would it take a lot of time and head scratching but would still end up being a waste of effort for no analytical result. Whatever word is used to categorize a given card it is worthless unless carefully defined within the framework of Promo cards only.

That is why I suggest rarity categories not be assigned to promo cards. If there must be categories they must NOT be R, U, or C but categories designed specifically for Promo cards and relevant to them, i.e. plentiful (Arena Lands), scarce (Player Reward for 20 events), very scarce (Pro Tour top 8), ultra scarce (Splendid Genesis) and unique (1996 World Champion) or some such.

Gary

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Post by dragsamou » Fri Apr 16, 2010 10:18 am

Hi Gary
No way, I change over 5000 cards on the website.While, I agree that Promos and others are different from the Normal cards, as there's no way to find out how many Promos or "Rarities" cards are in existence, I'd rather stick with the old way.
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Post by mystical_tutor » Fri Apr 16, 2010 3:39 pm

dragsamou wrote:Hi Gary
No way, I change over 5000 cards on the website.While, I agree that Promos and others are different from the Normal cards, as there's no way to find out how many Promos or "Rarities" cards are in existence, I'd rather stick with the old way.
I understand, though I did not know there wree 5000 promo cards on the site, your point is valid in any case.

That is why I said I wish I had the ability to help. I would gladly spend the time--as soon as I get rid of this darn head cold.

Keep up the good work, my friend.

Don't take my comments as "Your should be doing.." Your work is greatly appreciated and you can not do everything. Remember, I was a teacher of philosophy. Most of what I debate is to rais questions and clarify issues--not tell people what to do.

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Post by dragsamou » Fri Apr 16, 2010 4:18 pm

mystical_tutor wrote:
dragsamou wrote:Hi Gary
No way, I change over 5000 cards on the website.While, I agree that Promos and others are different from the Normal cards, as there's no way to find out how many Promos or "Rarities" cards are in existence, I'd rather stick with the old way.
I understand, though I did not know there wree 5000 promo cards on the site, your point is valid in any case.

That is why I said I wish I had the ability to help. I would gladly spend the time--as soon as I get rid of this darn head cold.

Keep up the good work, my friend.

Don't take my comments as "Your should be doing.." Your work is greatly appreciated and you can not do everything. Remember, I was a teacher of philosophy. Most of what I debate is to rais questions and clarify issues--not tell people what to do.

Gary
Hi Gary
By Promos, I included all the Media Inserts, etc....Get rid of that darn head cold, looks like there's a brand new update to verify :wink:
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