Foil card grading (on MCM again...)

magic-belgium · Post by **magic-belgium** » Thu Jan 05, 2012 9:00 pm

To sum things up, let me post here a private conversation I had with loki :

I am arktos71 on the conversation :

arktos71: I have a question for you
arktos71: I'm sure you've seen tons of foils
arktos71: in the past
arktos71: therefore I would like your opinion
arktos71: You know what a foil card looks like when it's been used right ?
arktos71: The layer is not shiny anymore
L0qi: yes
arktos71: there are traces
arktos71: spots...
arktos71: Would you consider a card like this Near Mint ?
arktos71: I'm not that picky about card grading
arktos71: but a used foil is simply ugly
arktos71: and it can't be called Near Mint
arktos71: Am I wrong ?
L0qi: professionally it can not be near mint
L0qi: a lot of local gaming stores would not care though, and just throw foils in a bulk box
L0qi: and players will buy them and call then "near mint"
L0qi: but they are not collectors
arktos71: Exactly
arktos71: Let me ^post this on the forum, as I got a message from a seller on MKM
L0qi: i can't trust a grade on a foil unless I see it myself first
arktos71: and he is supposedly a collector on the forum
L0qi: MKM is the worst for grading
L0qi: especially from portugal and italy
arktos71: There you go :-)
arktos71: He's italian
L0qi: i get cards that are something vg/ex and listed as nm
arktos71: Me too
arktos71: What section should I post about grading ?
arktos71: Commercial websites ?
L0qi: Inquiries
arktos71: OK

So, what's your opinion ? Please let me know.

I'm not sure a scan could show, so if you have a tip to scan the card so that I can show what I am talking about, please share it with me.

Blood · Post by **Blood** » Thu Jan 05, 2012 10:03 pm

I posted this somewhere else before, but will chime in with my 1 experience of buying many foils from many different people on MKM.

I bought about 150 foils from MKM from about 10-20 different sellers earlier this year (total purchase was around 300 Euros) and paid more for NM cards for obvious reasons, and after the package of cards got to me, I found that around 5 to 10 of the 150 cards were actually NM, with most being EX AT BEST and some being just beat and scratched and chipped and dented and cloudy and just plain ugly. It was an absolute disgrace. There was nothing I really could do, as a person on here (linsibinsi) ordered them for me and waited until they all arrived and then sent them over to the US for me, so I can not leave negative or anything. There was even a package that he never received with a foil Japanese Draco plus some other stuff.

The site seems so great with so many hard to find cards, but I was highly disappointed with my purchase for the condition reasons. The thing that sucks is they were mostly obscure foreign foils that are not easily found over here. Stuff I really wanted for the collection.

I do not want this to sound like a bashing post for MKM, but I think the truth of my purchase is fair to be known. I can attach scans of the cards if anyone wants to see what I am talking about.

I would 100% order from there again because of the selection, and hope this was just a terribly bad at grading group of sellers. I think the risks of finding hard cards are worth it. Jason

Side Note:
I would also like to thanks linsibinsi for all he did. He helped me very much and I thanks him for that. What a great community we have here.

Ertai's Familiar · Post by **Ertai's Familiar** » Thu Jan 05, 2012 10:22 pm

People cannot grade period. I have the same issues on MKM and MOTL.

Some call me a snob, I'd like to think I'm just fortunate to have good eye sight.

In all seriousness it's down right embarrassing what some people have tried to pawn off as NM. I have no qualms sending stuff back to people, especially through eBay where people over grade like crazy and use deceptive pictures/scans.

I find the best way to go about these things is to do a small order from someone - see how they grade - if it's good then keep on buying.

Gits · Post by **Gits** » Thu Jan 05, 2012 10:51 pm

Hi!

The italian culprit it's me ;)
The point I've already discussed in private with magic-belgium is that MKM has a public grading scale which you must follow when listing cards on that site. And I did followed it, listing many of my foils as NM.

The problem is that for collectors foil surface is really important, but MKM grading is far less strict, stating NM as "The card shows very small signs of wear" and showing a card that has a clear edge nick (you can see the scale in the link below). No mention of foils whatsoever.

I suggested MKM to include foils pictures in grading scale and to mention surface condition in order to avoid further problems with collectors and establish a clearer common ground. But I wouldn't be surprised if the shiny foil surface you've come to expect will be linked to mint ;)
MKM or MOTL are not BSG and PSA. Keep it in mind when ordering, others will follow public guidelines, not private expectations.

http://www.magiccardmarket.eu/index.php ... alityChart

magic-belgium · Post by **magic-belgium** » Thu Jan 05, 2012 11:08 pm

Here is part of what I told loki about the situation :

arktos71: What is the most frustrating for me, is that I SIMPLY HATE to complain about card grading :-)
arktos71: Because it makes me think of the time
arktos71: I was selling Disney beanies on the Internet
arktos71: and I was bashed on the foums because I was not sending beanies MWMT (I had no idea at that time why the tag was so important, now the beanies are worth nothing... Mint tag or not :-) )
arktos71: MWMT : Mint with Mint Tags
arktos71: So I just see myself whining for a card...
arktos71: That is pathetic :-)
arktos71: Well, in that case, it was a dozen cards

magic-belgium · Post by **magic-belgium** » Thu Jan 05, 2012 11:10 pm

Also, I admit I should have communicated with Gits, but I just did not want to enter in an endless discussion. It was 2 am in the morning, and I had spent 2 hours acknowledging the reception of 40 orders (this is so boring but better than on Ebay).

Ertai's Familiar · Post by **Ertai's Familiar** » Fri Jan 06, 2012 12:31 am

Gits I would like to point out that I do not expect BGS or PSA quality from people unless I ask. Fact of the matter is over the internet people consistently try to pass off EX cards as NM and NM as Gem Mint, it's very frustrating.

On the other hand I'd like to think it's not a personal expectation thing. I've bought NM cards from a few members here and have been very pleased because they are actually NM. It's one of the many reasons I treasure this site - people with like minded interests and standards of quality.

In general you are correct, the majority of MKM and MOTL members grade very poorly.

Gits · Post by **Gits** » Fri Jan 06, 2012 1:07 am

Ertai's Familiar wrote:Gits I would like to point out that I do not expect BGS or PSA quality from people unless I ask.

That's not what I intended. I simply wanted to tell that the public guidelines on MKM are geared towards a much broader and lenient audience. So when ordering one must act accordingly.

It's not that people do not know how to grade, is that the grading scale on those sites defines NM that. And is admittedly too much vague for foils.

magic-belgium · Post by **magic-belgium** » Fri Jan 06, 2012 1:32 am

Here is my opinion and what I answered to that :

Well, when I put grading on MKM, I use my own references. And as you can see, all the cards I am RE-listing are shown as excellent unless I had bought playsets and these are duplicates (hence NM).

I think you should consider the card grading the same as if you were, as a collector, buying them. This is what I do myself, and apply the price accordingly.

Would you honestly grade these cards as NM (foils, because MKM does not say anything about foils) ?

What is frustrating to me, is not the money wasted, but I will have to place new orders this week-end (you're not the only one with wrong graded cards) and I will have to list the cards that I don't want anymore.

...

If I played only with the cards, I would be satisfied. But I collect them, which is different.

Ertai's Familiar · Post by **Ertai's Familiar** » Fri Jan 06, 2012 2:17 am

Gits wrote:
Ertai's Familiar wrote:Gits I would like to point out that I do not expect BGS or PSA quality from people unless I ask.
That's not what I intended. I simply wanted to tell that the public guidelines on MKM are geared towards a much broader and lenient audience. So when ordering one must act accordingly.

It's not that people do not know how to grade, is that the grading scale on those sites defines NM that. And is admittedly too much vague for foils.

Sorry, after reading your post again I believe I interpreted it wrong. I understand your point about different audiences.

I guess at the end of the day it is best to make sure you ask and define if condition is a concern.

Gits · Post by **Gits** » Fri Jan 06, 2012 11:58 am

They replied to my request =D> :

Hi xxx,

thank you for your message. We are currently working on a more precise
grading guide and will consider your suggestion.

With best regards,

xxx xxx
MKM Customer Service

magic-belgium · Post by **magic-belgium** » Fri Jan 06, 2012 12:25 pm

That's a first !

tryst · Post by **tryst** » Fri Jan 06, 2012 11:06 pm

I need to respond with my experiences with MKM.
I have spent way too much money on the site over the last three years.
However, overall, I have been very satisfied with the quality of cards I have received.
In contrast to Blood's raw deal, I would have to say that 90% of the foils I have bought have been truly NM.

I'm curious. Could you either post the sellers' names or tell us their feedback?
As a rule, I avoid all sellers with a feedback less than 96% and take their description feedback very seriously.
I am not overly concerned about shipping speed.
I also buy from established sellers with at least 100 sales.
Are the sellers outside these parameters?
I also follow Ertai's advice and buy a few items first to judge the seller's grading acumen, before placing a larger order.

I have had excellent experiences with most countries, including Italy, Slovenia, Poland and the Czech Republic.
By far, German sellers have been the most accurate.
I have only placed one order with a Spanish seller and found the grading a bit weak.

The worst seller has been from Germany (Fantasy-Fieber), who couldn't conceive shipping a foil with creases.
He was just rude.

Let me know,
tryst

magic-belgium · Post by **magic-belgium** » Fri Jan 06, 2012 11:14 pm

In my case, I had to buy more than 500 international promos, and spent 40 hours placing orders to try and combine shipping, trying not to buy duplicates, and yes, tried to buy from the same seller.

In my opinion (before), big inventory = big seller = professional.

I was soooo wrong...

It happened I bought from the same seller twice. One order was bad and the next good...

magisterium in Italy is one of the best. karmacrow is excellent though the prices are expensive.

And I needed to mention Yvel (from here), with the biggest orders I placed with him. Very good overall.

acasim in Portugal is also very kind and friendly.

axcel · Post by **axcel** » Sun Jan 08, 2012 2:56 am

Karmacrow is MKM's own account, so I wouldn't expect problems from them. ;)

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Foil card grading (on MCM again...)

Foil card grading (on MCM again...)

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