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Posted: Sun Nov 03, 2013 7:37 pm
by Neuron
cataclysm80 wrote:
Neuron wrote: 1. No correct Drudge Skeletons in either DU or 4th (misprint uncorrected)

There was a member who wrote that he owns a large stock of both DU and 4th. If he would simply count the Drudge Skeletions and two or three other common titles for reference we had the above hypothesis strengthened or falsified.
I wonder if it might still be possible that misprint is 3rd Edition Drudge Skeletons and regular is 4th Edition? Odd that both cards align like 4th, but we haven't found a different Drudge Skeletons yet, and we know there should be one in 4th. Maybe misprint just has uncommonly high alignment for 3rd?

Would counting quantities available on MKM help at all?


Once I owned the other version of Drudge Skeleton, but gave them to someone. It has the small text similar to DL, but not exactly (recently asked a contact who copied it). Thus, I think it's more likely that the one with the same text as the misprint is also from DU. Yet, it might be possible that both versions extist in 4th (but I don't think so).
As told before there is no single alignment for DU and 4th. I will show that with scans soon. Thus, I agree that it's DU with rather uncommly high alignment.

I wouldn't build any hypothesis on MKM quantities. Quantity is good if you have a large self-pulled and integer stock.

Posted: Mon Nov 04, 2013 4:41 pm
by cataclysm80
Considering all of the discussion on text alignment, I thought it would be appropriate to copy the following info into this thread...

snarke wrote:Magic cards were originally created in two layers. The border and artwork were a high resolution TIFF file. The type and symbols were an EPS that was overlaid on the TIFF.

I was helping John Jordan with the foreign editions. The 'normal' production department was totally time-committed to the English editions, so when John came back with deals for Italian, French, German, et cetera, they didn't have anybody left to actually do the typesetting and layout. I was pulled back in because my 'old' system which the 'new' production department didn't understand and didn't want to use, could handle foreign characters with very little trouble, and was blazingly fast.

Posted: Tue Nov 05, 2013 10:21 pm
by Neuron
Neuron wrote:
I counted the slots from English uncut sheets:

Common: ... /lightbox/

Uncommon: ... /lightbox/

Version numbering follows for Beta lands: ... rd&s=cname

Breakdown basic lands on Revised sheets:


V1: 2/2
V2: 3/2
V3: 3/1

V1: 3/0
V2: 4/1
V3: 3/1

V1: 3/3
V2: 3/3
V3: 3/0

V1: 3/2
V2: 4/2
V3: 3/2

V1: 3/2
V2: 2/2
V3: 4/1

This should also be valid for German Unlimited, maybe as well as for English Revised. I haven't access to my Revised bulk that time, so I'm not sure.

Here what I promised (for more see: ... php?t=9133):

Plains V1:Image V2: Image V3:Image Forest V1: ImageV2: Image V3:Image

I first thought I had one of each slot missing, but when looking at the scans, there were more distinguishable sub-versions.

1. We have found all slots of Forest.
2. We have found all slots of Plains exept one of Plains V2.

=> 3. The misprint is the missing slot and therefore must be a Plains with Forest text:


Have a nice day :-D

Posted: Sat Nov 16, 2013 8:40 am
by dragsamou
Neuron wrote:Hi,

I don't find the tread anymore where I wrote that both sets can only be divided through the alignment (4th higher than DU) if the same card title is compared. Here you can see the alignment is not constant with all cards and they are not equally shifted upwards in 4th Edition:


Posted: Mon Dec 02, 2013 7:57 pm
by mmgun
These scans were missing for proof, left one should be 4th and right one 3rd:


Posted: Tue Dec 03, 2013 5:12 am
by cataclysm80
thanks mmgun! Yes, those two cards have different textboxes which confirms that a different version of Manabarbs exists in each set.

Magnification & Measuring confirm that the one on the Left is 4th and the one on the Right is 3rd.

Also note: The text box on the 4th edition manabarbs is different from the text box on the Manabarbs/Sedge Troll misprint. That makes these cards easy to tell apart even without measuring.

I was considering purchasing German 4th packs to open in an attempt at finding a confirmed German 4th Drudge Skeleton for comparison. I'd expect to need approximately 11 packs to have an OK chance of finding one.

However, Neuron has told me that he had some more information to post concerning the Drudge Skeletons, he just needs to resize a scan that is too large to post. Hopefully we'll hear more on that subject soon.


Posted: Thu Dec 05, 2013 6:56 am
by cataclysm80
It may not be relevant at this point, but I've confirmed that the card layout of German Black Border sheets is identical to English Revised.


Posted: Thu Dec 05, 2013 9:30 pm
by Neuron
Great that we have now also the Manabarbs!

It would be very important for me to see a picture of German Limited and Unlimited sheets. Is it possible to get one?

Posted: Fri Dec 06, 2013 8:27 am
by cataclysm80
I can provide this image of a German black border Rare sheet that was for sale a few months ago. Sorry it is not better picture quality, but sheet layout is identifiable by card artwork.

Unfortunately I haven't been able to find any German white border sheets yet.



Posted: Sat Dec 07, 2013 10:06 pm
by Neuron
Thank you, Tav. Have you seen also a Common sheet?

Drudge Skeletons explanation

Posted: Sat Dec 07, 2013 10:35 pm
by Neuron
As we know, there must be six slots of the relevant swamp on the Common and Uncommon sheets. I was able to find a mostly integer stock pulled from Starter Decks:


The count of the sub-versions is 13, 13, 6, 5, 4.
As there are only five sub-versions, and the numbers indicate clearly that one from the Common slot is missing, this one is likely to be the Drudge Skeletons misprint.

The easiest way to identify the sub-versions here are printing plate errors. They are surrounded in black. Also the placement of the card in the tap symbol are an indicator.

Posted: Sun Dec 08, 2013 10:51 pm
by cataclysm80
OK, I have a 3rd & 4th German Drudge Skeletons now. They are noticeably different. One of them has small flavor text similar to German black border but with slightly different wording as Neuron had said. I Will try to measure them and post pics soon.


Posted: Mon Dec 16, 2013 6:16 am
by cataclysm80
Neuron wrote:Thank you, Tav. Have you seen also a Common sheet?
No, unfortunately just the one sheet. It would have been really nice to see one of the sheets with land on it!


Posted: Mon Dec 16, 2013 6:23 am
by cataclysm80
cataclysm80 wrote:OK, I have a 3rd & 4th German Drudge Skeletons now. They are noticeably different. One of them has small flavor text similar to German black border but with slightly different wording as Neuron had said. I Will try to measure them and post pics soon.

OK, here is the picture of the Drudge Skeletons. I also did Fireball since I needed it identified for my global set. I have measured, compared, and confirmed these cards.

The cards on the left are German Limited Edition
The cards in the center are German Unlimited Edition
The cards on the right are German 4th Edition

Yes, in several instances (but not always) the 4th Edition text is smaller than 3rd Edition white border text.

Note that the wording of the flavor text on the 4th Edition Drudge Skeletons is slightly different than the Limited Edition version.

This confirms that German Unlimited (3rd, Revised) DOES have a regular Drudge Skeleton in addition to the misprint Drudge Skeleton/Swamp.



Posted: Thu Jan 23, 2014 11:56 am
by dragsamou
Hi All

As I finally received the 2 Warp Artifact/El-hajjaj from German Unlimited Edition and German 4th Edition (Thanks Ron :wink:) , I couldn't figure which one was Unlimited and 4Th Edition, but I noticed something immediately, the black coloring in the Skulls on top right is not the same at all, more Black for Unlimited and less for 4th Edition. As I don't have others cards for comparison for Manabarbs/Manahaken, can someone verify if this applies to the Red symbol on top right as well. Thanks