Inquiries about Art misprints

Questions about Magic items and events.

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cataclysm80
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Post by cataclysm80 » Mon Oct 07, 2013 9:41 pm

cataclysm80 wrote: The Drudge Skeletons on top is from 4th edition. The misprint Drudge Skeletons on bottom is 3rd edition. This one was more difficult. It turns out that the art border is larger on a Land than on the other cards, so I had to measure to the inner edge of the white card border instead of to the art box frame. We will need similar pictures of some German Swamps to finish solving whether the misprint is a Drudge Skeleton with Swamp picture, or a Swamp with Drudge Skeleton text.

Tav
UPDATE: When I started, the black cards were more difficult to measure due to the dark art border being almost the same color as the dark card frame. This time, I've found that measuring down to the card art (usually a contrasting color) is much easier, and with the Swamps for additional comparison, I’ve had another look at the Drudge Skeletons that I had a little difficulty with before. I’d like to revise my claim. The misprint Drudge Skeletons is still 3rd edition, but I now believe the regular print Drudge Skeletons is also 3rd edition. The extra line around the Land art box was also messing with me a bit, but with more Lands to look at now, I believe I have it figured out. Dragsamou, you may want to edit your list of questions to show that a 3rd edition regular print exists, and that we haven’t seen a 4th edition one yet. I still believe a regular print 4th edition German Drudge Skeletons exists, but we’ll need a high quality scan to prove it.

With both a regular Drudge Skeletons & a regular Swamp and also a misprint in 3rd edition, it will be very difficult to determine whether the misprint was supposed to be a Swamp or a Drudge Skeletons since they are commons and multiple copies of each could be on the sheet, with only some of them being misprints. How to figure this out? Anyone seen an uncut sheet? (I’m not even sure if that would help.) I think that in Revised, the Lands were not printed all on one sheet as they were in 4th, so the Lands probably were not all located together when you opened a 3rd Edition Starter Deck.

Tav

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Post by Neuron » Tue Oct 08, 2013 1:12 am

Hi

So according to this, can you reply my questions, I look for the 3 cards, and can't spot no difference on the scans there, as for Manahaken for example the trema are both well centered on "fügt" for Revised and 4th Edition Brick wall
Hi, I'm sorry for my unprecise formulation, the trema test is only valid for card titles. Nevertheless, as I told, Trader labels a lot of cards wrong, so do not use it if you want right answers.


Now to your answers:

Does a Warp Artifact/El-hajjaj Misprint exists from Revised German (Unlimitierte Auflage)? All I have seen (approx. 10) had a round j dot, so I would say no.
Does a Warp Artifact/El-hajjaj Misprint exists from 4Th Edition German. EXIST
Does a Normal El-hajjaj exists from Revised German (Unlimitierte Auflage).EXIST

Does a Normal Warp Artifact exists from Revised German (Unlimitierte Auflage)? I would say yes, but I will have to check it once more.

Does a Mana Barbs/Sedge Troll Misprint exists from Revised German (Unlimitierte Auflage). EXIST
Does a Mana Barbs/Sedge Troll Misprint exists from 4Th Edition German ? I would say no, as Sedge Troll wasn't supposed to be released in 4th.
Does a Normal Mana Barbs exists from Revised German (Unlimitierte Auflage).EXIST
Does a Normal Mana Barbs exists from 4Th Edition ? Yes. This you can proof on Trader-online.de. He has both versions, wrong labeled. Look at the "g" in "Verzauberung", on one it almost touches the upper border of the textbox, on the other there is a clearly visible gap.

Does a Normal Sedge Troll exists from Revised German (Unlimitierte Auflage)? Doesn't seem to exist.

Like cataclysm said, it’s very hard to tell whether a card does not exist. Even to see an uncut sheet wouldn’t help, as (in the case of 4th and a couple of others happened) cards can be corrected. At least, we can say that it’s not reported yet. The card texts were overworked mostly from DU to 4th, it’s nearly impossible to overlook such blatant misprints like El-Hajajj and Mana Barbs. So there should be only a very small probability that those denied cards still exist.
Last edited by Neuron on Wed Oct 09, 2013 6:04 am, edited 3 times in total.

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mmgun
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Post by mmgun » Tue Oct 08, 2013 9:25 am

cataclysm80 wrote:
It's harder to see the difference with the naked eye on the darker cards, but the measurements show that the Swamp on the left is 4th, while the Swamp in the middle is 3rd.

The measurements on Cursed Land seem to reveal it to be slightly different from what you had said. The Cursed Land on the Left (Der) is from 4th. The Cursed Land on the right (Das) is from 3rd. Again, I enlarged them so that the vertical alignment difference between the two cards was about 6 milimeters, which is measureable. I'm curious how you had previously identified which one was from which set.
Hmm, that actually differs from what i supposed.
I checked the positioning of the word "Land" in the card type line compared to the picture frame border.
If i compare the positioning of this word for the Mountain with slash on "i" (from 3rd) to the one from the swamps, the left swamp should be 3rd, since it has the same positioning. For me the swamp in the middle is 4th.But i am no expert.
Its just logical for me, since both left lands show identical difference compared to the lands in the middle, they should be from the same set.

About the cursed lands, i just supposed they corrected the error "der" in the later set. Thats why i suspected the "das" to be 4th.

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Post by dragsamou » Tue Oct 08, 2013 10:21 am

cataclysm80 wrote: Dragsamou, you may want to edit your list of questions to show that a 3rd edition regular print exists, and that we haven’t seen a 4th edition one yet. Tav
Hi

Done.
Neuron wrote: Does a Normal Mana Barbs exists from 4Th Edition ? Yes. This you can proof on Trader-online.de. He has both versions, wrong labeled. Look at the "g" in "Verzauberung", on one it almost touches the upper border of the textbox, on the other there is a clearly visible gape.
Done.


So, this is the List Updated. 6 more questions to answer:

Does a Warp Artifact/El-hajjaj Misprint exists from Revised German (Unlimitierte Auflage) ?
Does a Warp Artifact/El-hajjaj Misprint exists from 4Th Edition German. EXIST
Does a Normal El-hajjaj exists from Revised German (Unlimitierte Auflage).EXIST
Does a Normal El-hajjaj exists from 4Th Edition German.EXIST
Does a Normal Warp Artifact exists from Revised German (Unlimitierte Auflage) ?
Does a Normal Warp Artifact exists from 4Th Edition German.EXIST

Does a Swamp/Skeleton Misprint exists from Revised German (Unlimitierte Auflage). EXIST
Does a Swamp/Skeleton Misprint exists from 4Th Edition German ?
Does a Normal Drudge Skeleton exists from Revised German (Unlimitierte Auflage).EXIST
Does a Normal Swamp exists from Revised German (Unlimitierte Auflage).EXIST
Does a Normal Drudge Skeleton exists from 4Th Edition German ?
Does a Normal Swamp exists from 4th Edition German.EXIST

Does a Mana Barbs/Sedge Troll Misprint exists from Revised German (Unlimitierte Auflage). EXIST
Does a Mana Barbs/Sedge Troll Misprint exists from 4Th Edition German ?
Does a Normal Mana Barbs exists from Revised German (Unlimitierte Auflage).EXIST
Does a Normal Mana Barbs exists from 4Th Edition.EXIST
Does a Normal Sedge Troll exists from Revised German (Unlimitierte Auflage) ?

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cataclysm80
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Post by cataclysm80 » Tue Oct 08, 2013 10:00 pm

mmgun wrote:
cataclysm80 wrote:
It's harder to see the difference with the naked eye on the darker cards, but the measurements show that the Swamp on the left is 4th, while the Swamp in the middle is 3rd.
Hmm, that actually differs from what i supposed.
I checked the positioning of the word "Land" in the card type line compared to the picture frame border.
If i compare the positioning of this word for the Mountain with slash on "i" (from 3rd) to the one from the swamps, the left swamp should be 3rd, since it has the same positioning. For me the swamp in the middle is 4th.But i am no expert.
Its just logical for me, since both left lands show identical difference compared to the lands in the middle, they should be from the same set.

I agree with your method. The card type "Land" is located slightly lower on 3rd than on 4th, just like the card name. 4th is higher, making it closer to the art frame. Cards from the same set are alike and measure the same. I think that you know how to identify the cards like this, but perhaps you mixed the two cards up when putting them on the scanner? I click on the picture which opens up the photobucket page. Then I click the magnifying glass in the lower right corner of the image which opens the image again. Then I click on the magnifying glass in the lower right corner of THAT image which opens the original image which is quite large at aproximately 47.625 centimeters across the top of a card. (again, I say you have a very good image scanner!) Then I adjust my internet browser settings to zoom another 400% which makes a single card aproximately 190.5 centimeters across the top. This makes most of the lowercase letters 5 or 6 centimeters tall and makes it easier to measure the small distance between the letters and the art frame. Even with the card this big, it is a small difference, but anyone here should be able to repeat the results and identify cards. If you do this, I think you'll see that "Land" on the left Swamp is closer to the art frame (4th).

Either way, we both agree that a regular print Swamp with this art exists in both 3rd & 4th.

Tav

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Post by cataclysm80 » Tue Oct 08, 2013 10:50 pm

Neuron wrote:Look at the picture of the El-Hajjaj misprint: You will notice that the horizontal of the black frame is perfectly parallel to the cardboard. Not so the vertical ones, they are clined to the right, making the frame an parallelogram. (Those kind of distorted frames occur on several cards, all I have seen are foreign black or white bordered.) The 4th Warped Artifact is deformed the same way as the El-Hajjaj misprint, but not the Revised one.

I have all three misprints with all reference cards, yet no pictures as I'm starting here right now. Can anyone can tell me a serious free online photo album site?

Thank you!
I'm trying, but I'm not seeing this yet. Just the art frame is a parallelogram, or the whole card border? Perhaps you can explain it better, or perhaps your misprint looks different from the one pictured earlier in this thread? It sounds sort of like you're talking about a miscut or machine error that probably wouldn't be present on the entire print run of a set. If you can post pictures, I'm sure that would help a lot.

Thanks!

Tav

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Post by cataclysm80 » Tue Oct 08, 2013 11:00 pm

dragsamou wrote:
Does a Normal Warp Artifact exists from 4Th Edition German.EXIST
I'm not sure about this one yet. I'm pretty sure a regular Warp Artifact exists, but I haven't had a close enough look to see which set it's from.

Tav

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Post by cataclysm80 » Tue Oct 08, 2013 11:05 pm

dragsamou wrote: Does a Warp Artifact/El-hajjaj Misprint exists from Revised German (Unlimitierte Auflage) ?

Does a Swamp/Skeleton Misprint exists from 4Th Edition German ?

Does a Mana Barbs/Sedge Troll Misprint exists from 4Th Edition German ?

Does a Normal Sedge Troll exists from Revised German (Unlimitierte Auflage) ?
I think that the answer to these 4 questions is that those cards do NOT exist. I'm not sure how to prove it though.

Tav

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Post by Neuron » Wed Oct 09, 2013 2:07 am

cataclysm80 wrote:
Neuron wrote:Look at the picture of the El-Hajjaj misprint: You will notice that the horizontal of the black frame is perfectly parallel to the cardboard. Not so the vertical ones, they are clined to the right, making the frame an parallelogram. (Those kind of distorted frames occur on several cards, all I have seen are foreign black or white bordered.) The 4th Warped Artifact is deformed the same way as the El-Hajjaj misprint, but not the Revised one.

I have all three misprints with all reference cards, yet no pictures as I'm starting here right now. Can anyone can tell me a serious free online photo album site?

Thank you!
I'm trying, but I'm not seeing this yet. Just the art frame is a parallelogram, or the whole card border? Perhaps you can explain it better, or perhaps your misprint looks different from the one pictured earlier in this thread? It sounds sort of like you're talking about a miscut or machine error that probably wouldn't be present on the entire print run of a set. If you can post pictures, I'm sure that would help a lot.

Thanks!

Tav
EDIT: After measuring the frames, I found that the cards are really miscut. The frame errors I reported do not exist. Nevertheless, they indicate the edition. Thank you for your hint!
Last edited by Neuron on Thu Oct 10, 2013 2:40 am, edited 2 times in total.

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Post by Neuron » Wed Oct 09, 2013 2:47 am

Does a Normal Drudge Skeleton exists from 4Th Edition German?
I was told today by a helpful collector who has pulled 95 % of both DU and 4th himself that the version with the small flavour text is the 4th. I have ordered some to proof the alignment with my own eyes.
Does a Swamp/Skeleton Misprint exists from 4Th Edition German?
I have examined ca. 20 versions from different Ebay and MCM sellers, they are all the same aligned. Thus, they might come all from the same edition. I have lost the oversight in this post, is it confirmed that the Misprint came from DU? If yes, the anwer is with high probability no.

And...
the frame typefacing alignment: The misprint version is aligned too high to fit with a DU Swamp (but it perfectly fits with a 4th swamp). The normal Drudge Skeletons with the large flavour text seems to be aligned as high as that. This leads - assuming that both cards are from DU - to the conclusion: This is a picture misprint on the Drudge Skeletons slot, which was corrected at some point.

If the misprint is from 4th, it can be a text misprint on a swamp slot with the flavour text version of DU. But that seems more unlikely to me; even more that it should be a both text and picture error on a Drudge Skeleton slot which was corrected.

Pictures following.

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Post by Default User » Wed Oct 09, 2013 11:23 am

I will go through my collection of misprinted Drudge Skeleton/Swamps, but as far as I remember all are identical with the type-line being high, g's touching the top of art box and large flavour text.

I have about 120 of these misprints so while not all conclusive, it should give some level of confidence. In my opinion these are from DU, german unlimited edition, and if I had a few days without kids around I know I have some regular Drudge Skeletons from both DU and german 4th around, that I bought some years back from MCM as I was also curious on the availlability of the DU version...

Here's the link to MCM scan of the DU correct version: Drudge Skeleton

Hovering cursor over the MP symbol on the list of editions on the above page shows also the misprint, if somebody wants to compare the two versions easily.

On the 4th edition sales list on MCM one seller has covered his bases: playset [• Near Mint •] - Oder Deutsch Unlimitiert / or German Unlimited

With kind regards,

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Neuron
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Post by Neuron » Thu Oct 10, 2013 2:46 am

So, here a picture of all Warp Artifacts I have now. They are inteded to be in chronological order (in reading direction).

Image
Last edited by Neuron on Thu Oct 10, 2013 7:32 pm, edited 1 time in total.

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Post by dragsamou » Thu Oct 10, 2013 8:30 am

Neuron wrote:I'm sorry for the size, my album site has a problem now that I can't change anything.
This is by far, the biggest scan ever posted on the Forum, looking to be in the Guiness Book of records....I see :-D
PS: I will resize it, once our CSI Experts have done their job
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Post by Neuron » Thu Oct 10, 2013 7:38 pm

This is by far, the biggest scan ever posted on the Forum, looking to be in the Guiness Book of records....I see laughing
PS: I will resize it, once our CSI Experts have done their job
Wow beginning and already a record :-D


Now resized, so anyone can examine them better. My claim:

DU, DU, 4th
4th, 4th, 4th,
Intro, Intro

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Post by dragsamou » Thu Oct 10, 2013 7:47 pm

Neuron wrote:
This is by far, the biggest scan ever posted on the Forum, looking to be in the Guiness Book of records....I see laughing
PS: I will resize it, once our CSI Experts have done their job
Wow beginning and already a record :-D


Now resized, so anyone can examine them better. My claim:

DU, DU, 4th
4th, 4th, 4th,
Intro, Intro
Thanks Neuron. We will solve that amazingly difficult German Misprints Story hopefully :wink:
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