Inquiries about Art misprints

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Post by Default User » Fri Oct 25, 2013 9:40 am

I finally managed to check my Swamp/Drudge Skeletons and can say that all 100+ are identical, so no text/border/copyright etc differences among the copies. I unfortunately didn't have a chance to dig up regular versions of the Drudge Skeletons, as my son got chicken pox and my daughter is coming down with it now. Two weeks incubation period ending just as the first one gets better...

I can also get scans of the Plains/Forest misprint and regular lands from opened german limited edition starters, but it will take few days. I have four opened fbb starters still together from a better time when they cost quite a bit less and memebers from these forums were looking for few missing mint rares. There should be enough lands to get a few nice scans, altough no duals out of 12 rares. There was exactly one misprint Plains/Forest in each pack by the way, but maybe I just got lucky.
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Post by cataclysm80 » Mon Oct 28, 2013 5:12 am

Default User wrote:I finally managed to check my Swamp/Drudge Skeletons and can say that all 100+ are identical, so no text/border/copyright etc differences among the copies. I unfortunately didn't have a chance to dig up regular versions of the Drudge Skeletons, as my son got chicken pox and my daughter is coming down with it now. Two weeks incubation period ending just as the first one gets better...

I can also get scans of the Plains/Forest misprint and regular lands from opened german limited edition starters, but it will take few days. I have four opened fbb starters still together from a better time when they cost quite a bit less and memebers from these forums were looking for few missing mint rares. There should be enough lands to get a few nice scans, altough no duals out of 12 rares. There was exactly one misprint Plains/Forest in each pack by the way, but maybe I just got lucky.
I really look forward to hearing if there are any differences on your regular Drudge Skeletons, and seeing the scans of the German black border Plains & Forests!

Thanks for participating!

Tav

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Post by cataclysm80 » Mon Oct 28, 2013 5:34 am

I'd like to write more, but don't have much time at the moment. I wanted to share this picture though. Today I had my wife help to study the text alignment on the misprint Drudge Skeletons/Swamp compared to the regular print Drudge Skeletons. She has a more exact method than measuring the computer screen with a ruler. She is very good with photoshop and was abile to create this image so that everyone could see the findings.

Using the excellent scans provided by mmgun, we cropped off the left part of the regular print Drudge Skeletons so that we could get the "g" in both card names right next to each other for comparison. Next we zoomed in very close and exactly aligned the card frames with each other. Next we drew a thin blue line over the edge of the card frame and moved that line straight down to the bottom of the regular print "g". This line is exactly paralell to the card frame. The thin blue line is long, so you can also compare the "p" or other letters.

If you look closely (or zoom in) you can see that the regular print text is slightly (about 3 pixels) lower than on the misprint text. Remember that we have established the misprint is from 3rd, and also established that 4th edition text is HIGHER aligned than 3rd. Everyone can now see that this Drudge Skeleton can not be from 4th.

The vertical red line over the g was added so that you could see the difference easier. One red line is an exact clone of the other red line, it was just moved sideways only. The red lines are exactly the same size and have exactly the same vertical alignment. Looking at the top and bottom of the red line, you can see that the misprint "g" is slightly higher.

I am trying to talk her into making another similar image to compare the misprint to the 3rd edition Swamp, but it is slightly time consuming and she is reluctant. It will take a bit of talking for me...

Here is the picture. Enjoy!

Image

Tav
Last edited by cataclysm80 on Wed Apr 16, 2014 5:41 am, edited 1 time in total.

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Post by Default User » Mon Oct 28, 2013 4:06 pm

Image

As promised. Out of the packs I never opened the third Forest, but it excists, as seen from MCM.
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Post by Neuron » Tue Oct 29, 2013 1:11 am

cataclysm80 wrote:I'd like to write more, but don't have much time at the moment. I wanted to share this picture though. Today I had my wife help to study the text alignment on the misprint Drudge Skeletons/Swamp compared to the regular print Drudge Skeletons. She has a more exact method than measuring the computer screen with a ruler. She is very good with photoshop and was abile to create this image so that everyone could see the findings.

Using the excellent scans provided by mmgun, we cropped off the left part of the regular print Drudge Skeletons so that we could get the "g" in both card names right next to each other for comparison. Next we zoomed in very close and exactly aligned the card frames with each other. Next we drew a thin blue line over the edge of the card frame and moved that line straight down to the bottom of the regular print "g". This line is exactly paralell to the card frame. The thin blue line is long, so you can also compare the "p" or other letters.

If you look closely (or zoom in) you can see that the regular print text is slightly (about 3 pixels) lower than on the misprint text. Remember that we have established the misprint is from 3rd, and also established that 4th edition text is HIGHER aligned than 3rd. Everyone can now see that this Drudge Skeleton can not be from 4th.

The vertical red line over the g was added so that you could see the difference easier. One red line is an exact clone of the other red line, it was just moved sideways only. The red lines are exactly the same size and have exactly the same vertical alignment. Looking at the top and bottom of the red line, you can see that the misprint "g" is slightly higher.

I am trying to talk her into making another similar image to compare the misprint to the 3rd edition Swamp, but it is slightly time consuming and she is reluctant. It will take a bit of talking for me...

Here is the picture. Enjoy!

Image

Tav
Hi Tav,

thank you for that work. To me it looks like as the left picture is placed a bit too high (or the right too low). That could cause your 3 pixels.

Remember that the entire frame printing differs equally. One should be aware that the white typescript and and the black shadow weren't always aligned perfectly these days. More secure than measuring the script is to measure the casting cost.

For example, the "Counterspell" in DU is higher aligned in white, but lower in black ink than in 4th. But the card type line and mana symbols tell the truth. Hope to be able to post pictures soon.

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Post by Neuron » Tue Oct 29, 2013 1:13 am

I have plenty of examples for those, also the correct plains. I examined them and already come to a conclusion. Pictures hopefully following.

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Post by mmgun » Tue Oct 29, 2013 12:05 pm

Default User wrote:Image

As promised. Out of the packs I never opened the third Forest, but it excists, as seen from MCM.

My assumptions is, there were several of each basic land on the print sheet, and one of the Version2 Forests was the Misprint Forest/Plains.
Even on MCM ( where mainly German cards are listed for 3rd BB Revised) there are much less Version 2 Forest listed ( 2xx vs 5xx and 4xx of the other 2 versions)
I also checked the content of my four 3rd BB Starter Packs, which are still quite original ( but open) , no Version2 Forest was there.
I only own one of those Version 2 Forest, while i have plenty of the others.

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Post by cataclysm80 » Tue Oct 29, 2013 9:21 pm

cataclysm80 wrote: Of the 9 text/art misprints, Serendib Efreet is the only English one, and the only one proven to have the wrong art. 6 others are proven to have the wrong text. Drudge Skeletons/Swamp & Forest/Plains are unproven. (If anyone has info on the Forest/Plains, I'd like to discuss that one also.) The Serendib Efreet mistake was made when the art & frame were organized into sheets for the first printing of Revised which was in English. The blue Hurricane was an accident that happened while correcting the Serendib Efreet. I still don't think the card art or card position on the sheet changed between language printings of the same set, only the words changed. IF that's true, it would mean that wrong art errors are only possible in the first printing of a set when the art & frame are first organized into sheets. (In this instance, we happen to know that English Revised was printed before any other languages, and that's when the Serendib Efreet art mistake was made.) IF the card art & card position on the sheet do not change between language printings, then all subsequent text/art errors would be text errors. Just to make it clear, I will say that this is a Theory, it is Not proven.
Neuron wrote: This is indeed a good argument. I wish I could be in common with you, as I find it the more elegant explanation. However, it doesn't fit with the facts.
You can find a lot of foreign cards with partial english text in either title, card type or rulestext (see squt's site), but very few vice versa (all I know are two or three concerning the copyright clause and none of them are Asian). Those indicate that the first language the cards are designed in is English and the spoiler lists are sent to the translators for their work.
Thus, it seems that both the Flood Plain and the Eye of Ramos example questions the above thought that art and frame can't change between languages.
Yes, I'll have to agree that the cards are first designed in English and then sent to the translators.

I've recently been studying Ice Age cards that are miscut enough to show another card. I know of two people who are trying for complete sets of miscut Ice Age like this (multiple sheets were miscut like this). I've seen several examples that prove without a doubt that English Ice Age common sheet has two versions. Each version contains the same cards (1 or each common), but those cards ARE aranged differently on each version.

To the best of our knowledge, all Ice Age cards were made in Belgium, so the variation is not caused by multiple printing facilities. Also, several of the Ice Age miscuts I saw were not part of the Ice Age promotional release (which was before the official release), so I am sure that the sheet variation is from the regular print run.

There is some speculation as to why the variation exists, possibly the original printing plate wore out thus requiring a new one, or perhaps some corrections were made to the cards and the sheet was reordered at that point, although I'm not aware of any cards being corrected.

Regardless, it is proof that the card art can and has been moved around on the sheet, not just between languages, but within the same language for reasons that are not currently apparent.

I have heard that sets prior to Ice Age had a set print quantity (item is sold out when supplies are depleted), while Ice Age was the first set to have a set timeframe during which more cards would be printed if the first print run sold out, and this may also be the cause of the sheet variations. It is possible that my theory (shown above) could still be true for sets prior to Ice Age, but it should not be applied to Ice Age or any sets afterword. I also feel that it (along with the other examples we have mentioned) brings enough doubt about the accuracy of the theory that we should not rely on the theory for ANY conclusions.

This does not mean that the Drudge Skeletons/Swamp misprint is not a Swamp, it just means that we still don't know.

Tav

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Post by cataclysm80 » Wed Oct 30, 2013 12:17 am

Neuron wrote: Swamp DU is not aligned the same as the Drudge Skeletons misprint.
cataclysm80 wrote: That is true. (and I think it's strange)
Neuron wrote: the alignment varies between different DU cards [and so within 4th cards] so that you can only compare card X from DU and card X from 4th to be sure what set they are from.)

I thought that this could use some more clarification...

I started with the Hypnotic Specters as it was easy to tell which one was from which set with the lowercase i. They did show a difference, 4th being aligned higher than 3rd. Than I moved to the Manabarbs, which align the same as each other. That means the Manabarbs are from the same set, but does not tell me which set, so I compare Manabarbs to Hypnotic Specter using "e" & "n" which are in both card names and find that both Manabarbs match alignment with 3rd edition Hypnotic Specter.

The Earthquakes have different alignments, 4th being aligned higher than 3rd. The El-hajjaj & misprint Warp Artifact have the same alignment and are identified as 4th by the lowercase i. It is agreed that the Drudge Skeleton/Swamp misprint is 3rd, trying to identify the regular Drudge Skeleton was difficultdue to the very dark (black) color, but the "a" seemed to measure same as 4th Edition El-Hajjaj, and "e" seemed to measure same as 4th edition Earthquake, so I claimed it's 4th at first. (more in a moment)

Ornithopter was easy to identify by alignment & lowercase i. Cursed Lands have different alignment, 4th being aligned higher than 3rd.

Up until this point, it seems that 3rd cards all use one vertical alignment, and 4th cards all use another vertical alignment.

Then the basic lands show up. It is not hard to identify the mountains by alignment or by the lowercase i. The Swamps can also be identified by differing alignments and a close look at serif on the lowercase p. However, I tried comparing them to the other cards and these letters do Not measure the same distance from the art as the other cards. In other words, basic lands seem to be vertically aligned differently than non land cards. I think that is strange, but it probably has something to do with that extra colored line around the art box on lands.

Now with a Swamp & a Drudge Skeleton, I try again to compare to the misprint and find that the misprint seems aligned the same as the Drudge Skeleton which I thought was 4th. After much comparison, I conclude that if the misprint is known to be 3rd then the Drudge Skeleton must also be 3rd as they are the same.

Even closer inspection reveals VERY slight difference as posted above, but regular Drudge Skeleton is definately not aligned higher than the misprint.

Very confusing as to what's going on.

I have more thoughts on the subject, but am out of time to type at the moment.

Tav

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Post by Neuron » Wed Oct 30, 2013 2:15 am

cataclysm80 wrote:
I've seen several examples that prove without a doubt that English Ice Age common sheet has two versions. Each version contains the same cards (1 or each common), but those cards ARE aranged differently on each version.
As you mention it, I remember having seen that, too. It really wondered me.
Regardless, it is proof that the card art can and has been moved around on the sheet, not just between languages, but within the same language for reasons that are not currently apparent.
Right. Here we must ask why the cards are put on the sheet at random and not sorted (like in preconstructed decks sheets for example). It should be, because otherwise they had to be randomized a lot before being packaged. There are some fixed shuffle algorithms to do it so that, if you can find them out, you are able to predict exactly what cards are in a pack (box mapping). Changing the sheet order could be one way to proceed against that.
I have heard that sets prior to Ice Age had a set print quantity (item is sold out when supplies are depleted), while Ice Age was the first set to have a set timeframe during which more cards would be printed if the first print run sold out, and this may also be the cause of the sheet variations.
I heard that, too. This was the case until The Dark, all Editions before (except Revised which had the post summer print run) were sold out within a few weeks. On the other hand, I heard that after the overprinting fiasko with Fallen Empires and Chronicles Wizards again changed it to the previous print policy. Now they did know how many cards were asked for approximately.
It is possible that my theory (shown above) could still be true for sets prior to Ice Age, but it should not be applied to Ice Age or any sets afterword. I also feel that it (along with the other examples we have mentioned) brings enough doubt about the accuracy of the theory that we should not rely on the theory for ANY conclusions.

This does not mean that the Drudge Skeletons/Swamp misprint is not a Swamp, it just means that we still don't know.
My mind. We will never know it for sure without insider information, however, the alignment argument still seems the strongest.
I started with the Hypnotic Specters as it was easy to tell which one was from which set with the lowercase i. They did show a difference, 4th being aligned higher than 3rd. Than I moved to the Manabarbs, which align the same as each other. That means the Manabarbs are from the same set, but does not tell me which set, so I compare Manabarbs to Hypnotic Specter using "e" & "n" which are in both card names and find that both Manabarbs match alignment with 3rd edition Hypnotic Specter.

The Earthquakes have different alignments, 4th being aligned higher than 3rd. The El-hajjaj & misprint Warp Artifact have the same alignment and are identified as 4th by the lowercase i. It is agreed that the Drudge Skeleton/Swamp misprint is 3rd, trying to identify the regular Drudge Skeleton was difficultdue to the very dark (black) color, but the "a" seemed to measure same as 4th Edition El-Hajjaj, and "e" seemed to measure same as 4th edition Earthquake, so I claimed it's 4th at first. (more in a moment)

Ornithopter was easy to identify by alignment & lowercase i. Cursed Lands have different alignment, 4th being aligned higher than 3rd.

Up until this point, it seems that 3rd cards all use one vertical alignment, and 4th cards all use another vertical alignment.
I believe in your measurements, I didn't claim all cards differ. Yet there are also some: Counterspell, Flight and Disenchant for example all don't match. They all have the lower "g" in the title, which sometimes touch the border of the art box and sometimes not.
Disenchant: DU touch clearly, 4th no touch
Flight: DU touch slightly, 4th no touch
Counterspell: DU see DU Flight, 4th touch very very slightly.
Then the basic lands show up.
They behave totally different. I have an almost complete basics set of both editions (1 card missing). For example, the Beta-introduced Forest art is aligned at lot higher than the other two versions. The DU version is still aligned higher than the other two versions of 4th.
Thus, you really can't be sure, if you compare different cards. The sole regular thing here is there is no regularity...
Now with a Swamp & a Drudge Skeleton, I try again to compare to the misprint and find that the misprint seems aligned the same as the Drudge Skeleton which I thought was 4th. After much comparison, I conclude that if the misprint is known to be 3rd then the Drudge Skeleton must also be 3rd as they are the same.
I also took that in consideration, however thought the misprint could be from 4th, because it is aligned uncommonly high for DU cards. But someone who pulled them told the big flavour version was DU and the small from 4th. (That's another unelegant circumstance, better would have been DL small, DU small, 4th large. Both small texted versions don't fit accutately in the wording, though.)
Even closer inspection reveals VERY slight difference as posted above, but regular Drudge Skeleton is definately not aligned higher than the misprint.

Very confusing as to what's going on.
This statement confuses me... Isn't it contradicting itself?

I am still the opinion that the above pictured Skeleton comparison is deficient. The misprint is placed higher than the corrected version. For that, it still seems they are aligned the same and thus the misprint is an art error. Sorry for that!

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Post by dragsamou » Fri Nov 01, 2013 2:29 pm

Neuron wrote:
The four miscut cards in the scan have all been identified as German 4th Edition (by greatly enlarging them and measuring the vertical alignment of the card name).

Note: The Non-Miscut cards in the picture are from German 3rd Edition and German Two Player Starter Set.

Note: The Right card in the middle row is miscut differently, being clined to the left instead of clined to the right like the others.

Tav
Tav, thanks for confirming that. How far are we now? I think the questions concerning the Drudge Skeletons are still open. As there are versions with two different flavour texts dragsamou might add the following four questions:

Does a Drudge Skeletons with long/short flavour text from German Unlimited/4th Edition exist?

Unfortunately, I still don't have the whitebordered version with the long text. Here just an example of the German Limited to see what I am talking about (picture 1, ignore the other languages).

On picture 2 you see a Drudge Skeletons misprint with a Swamp from 4th on the left and one from German Unlimited (DU) on the bottom. When you look at the serif of the "p" in the title of both upper cards you will notice that it fits very well. But the card type line doesn't fit perfectly.

On picture 3 you see the DU swamp left to the misprint. Neither the title or the card type alignment fits very well.

What can we conclude thereof? Well, I think it indicates that it is not a text error on a swamp, but a picture misprint on the Drudge Skeletons. As only one Drudge Skeletons happens to appear on the common sheet either there are:

1. No correct Drudge Skeletons in either DU or 4th (misprint uncorrected)
2. A smaller quantity of correct Drudge Skeletons in one of the two editions. (misprint corrected)
(3. A smaller quantity of correct Drudge Skeletons in one edition and no in the other (misprint in both editions))

There was a member who wrote that he owns a large stock of both DU and 4th. If he would simply count the Drudge Skeletions and two or three other common titles for reference we had the above hypothesis strengthened or falsified.

Now the pictures:

Picture 1
Image


Picture 2
Image


Picture 3
Image
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Post by cataclysm80 » Sun Nov 03, 2013 5:30 am

Neuron wrote:
and bringing to mind it's mandatory that, in the case of a text error, the alignment between misprint and correct version may not vary, I cannot come to another opinion than Drudge Skeletons misprint is a picture error.
I'm not sure I agree with this one, but it shouldn't be very hard to check it out because I have misprint & correct of some of the 6 proven text errors. The Warp Artifacts posted here are also a good example.
Attention! I made a mistake: The alignment not of the correct, but of the correctED version must go together. You can only use the Warp Artifact misprint to check it. For the non-corrected text misprints, it is likely that they differ from their pendant, they are two different designed cards.

As far as I see, the El-Hajjâj misprint and Warp Artifact match. Would be nice if you could check it again. Thanks!
I checked the Warp Artifact, El-Hajjaj, & misprint again. All of them from 4th align the same.

If I understand Neuron's theory correctly, he suggests that the Drudge Skeleton/Swamp misprint is a Drudge Skeleton with picture error if its text aligns with regular Drudge Skeleton, or is a Swamp with text error if its text aligns with regular Swamp text.

While the text does pretty well align with regular Drudge Skeletons, I'm not sure that a Swamp with text error would necessarily have text alignment the same as a regular Swamp because the text error may also copy error alignment.

Tav

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Post by cataclysm80 » Sun Nov 03, 2013 6:16 am

Neuron wrote: 1. No correct Drudge Skeletons in either DU or 4th (misprint uncorrected)


There was a member who wrote that he owns a large stock of both DU and 4th. If he would simply count the Drudge Skeletions and two or three other common titles for reference we had the above hypothesis strengthened or falsified.
I wonder if it might still be possible that misprint is 3rd Edition Drudge Skeletons and regular is 4th Edition? Odd that both cards align like 4th, but we haven't found a different Drudge Skeletons yet, and we know there should be one in 4th. Maybe misprint just has uncommonly high alignment for 3rd?

Would counting quantities available on MKM help at all?

Tav

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Post by Neuron » Sun Nov 03, 2013 5:29 pm

Hi back,

while being absent from the forums the last few days, I examined hundreds of German Limited basic lands. I have good and bad news:

Good:

- I discovered 14 (as far as I know) unreported misprints :-O :-D
- It seems to be possible to distinguish each basic land slot by alignment

Bad:

- a full set collector needs to go for probably 70 basic lands to have everything complete >:-(


I counted the slots from English uncut sheets:

Common:

http://www.flickr.com/photos/34829523@N ... /lightbox/

Uncommon:

http://www.flickr.com/photos/34829523@N ... /lightbox/


Version numbering follows magiccards.info for Beta lands:

http://magiccards.info/query?q=r%3Aland ... rd&s=cname

Breakdown basic lands on Revised sheets:

Common/Uncommon

Plains:
V1: 2/2
V2: 3/2
V3: 3/1

Island:
V1: 3/0
V2: 4/1
V3: 3/1

Swamp:
V1: 3/3
V2: 3/3
V3: 3/0

Mountain:
V1: 3/2
V2: 4/2
V3: 3/2

Forest:
V1: 3/2
V2: 2/2
V3: 4/1


This should also be valid for German Unlimited, maybe as well as for English Revised. I haven't access to my Revised bulk that time, so I'm not sure.

I already have sorted some of the versions, it is incredibly difficult. While I can distinguish a DU card and it's 4th pendant within a few seconds, this took a much longer time and a lot of concentration. The differences are in subpixel regions so that one has to be very selfcritical for not to be taken by one's own imagination. Yet, I think I managed it and I'm going to scan everything tomorrow.

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Post by Neuron » Sun Nov 03, 2013 7:20 pm

cataclysm80 wrote:
Neuron wrote:
and bringing to mind it's mandatory that, in the case of a text error, the alignment between misprint and correct version may not vary, I cannot come to another opinion than Drudge Skeletons misprint is a picture error.
I'm not sure I agree with this one, but it shouldn't be very hard to check it out because I have misprint & correct of some of the 6 proven text errors. The Warp Artifacts posted here are also a good example.
Attention! I made a mistake: The alignment not of the correct, but of the correctED version must go together. You can only use the Warp Artifact misprint to check it. For the non-corrected text misprints, it is likely that they differ from their pendant, they are two different designed cards.

As far as I see, the El-Hajjâj misprint and Warp Artifact match. Would be nice if you could check it again. Thanks!
I checked the Warp Artifact, El-Hajjaj, & misprint again. All of them from 4th align the same.

If I understand Neuron's theory correctly, he suggests that the Drudge Skeleton/Swamp misprint is a Drudge Skeleton with picture error if its text aligns with regular Drudge Skeleton, or is a Swamp with text error if its text aligns with regular Swamp text.

While the text does pretty well align with regular Drudge Skeletons, I'm not sure that a Swamp with text error would necessarily have text alignment the same as a regular Swamp because the text error may also copy error alignment.

Tav
Understood correctly :-D. Thank you for your critics, I really appreciate it. I hope you also don't take mine on your thoughts personally. I just want to help to find out the truth, so I intervene when theories in my opinion don't match with the evidence.

Whether the text error corrections occur with alignment change depends on how the correction is done. I presupposed that the text could be typed into different fields. Then it only had to be removed and typed in anew (=> same alignment of corrected Swamp and it's misprint). As the Swamp occurs multiple time on the sheet, it the Drudge Skeleton could be handled as corrected and should have the same alignment.
However, I now found that EACH slot of basic lands is aligned individually (see above). That makes everything more complicated, if not unsoluble. (But the Wald misprint could be identified through that.)

With picture errors I thought the frame must have been replaced (and the place of it couldn't change), but the text remained. So correct Drudge Skeletons and the misprint should fit.

However, my assumptions could be wrong. I hope Dave Howell can help us to find that out (just contacted him).

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