Where the 4 different M Fillers cards are coming from ?????

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Where the 4 different M Fillers cards are coming from ?????

Post by dragsamou » Tue Apr 21, 2015 2:08 pm

Hi Members

Long time, I want to do this topic, as it's for me one of the biggest mystery. From the beginning of Magic Rarities back in the years, we only knew about the M Black filler card, it wasn't mentioned where it was coming from. Then, on the second Magic Rarities website, suddenly the "From Pro Tour 1996" was mentioned. I never find myself a M "Filler" card from a Pro Tour Box set, and to my memory and looking into the Old Archives recently, I couldn't retrieve that info. so my first question is:

Does any members ever find a M Black filler in a Pro Tour 1996 box set

Then, back in 2004, it was mentioned that M Black filler variants exist.
M cards have a very faint ring around the M. The ring goes completely around the top of the M and intersects the bottom of the outside legs.The ring is most noticable if you tilt the card slightly
http://www.magiclibrarities.net/forum/v ... sc&start=0

http://www.magiclibrarities.net/forum/v ... highlight=

http://www.magiclibrarities.net/forum/v ... php?t=3804

M FILLER CARD

Let's have a look at a M Black Filler card front and back:

ImageImage

Now, let's have a look at Pro Tour 1996 Cards front and back:

ImageImage

As we know:
Filler Cards are a result of arithmetic differences between the card printing process and card packaging. Magic cards are printed in sheets of 121 cards. Preconstructed decks come in packs of 60 cards. So, two preconstructed decks can fit onto one sheet, with one space left over. In this space is printed a filler card. These cards are supposed to be removed and destroyed prior to packaging, but occasionally one makes it out.
So, something is totally illogical here, where the MTG standard back from the M Black filler card is coming from ???? And why the Front is a totally dark version of the back of a regular Pro Tour 1996 card back. let's put them together:

ImageImage

Except the M, they have nothing in common, even the M that's not even at the proper place, and a hidden ring, that will only show if you illuminate the "filler card" playing with some tools:

Image

Same pic but playing with the inverted tool:

Image

So, being logical, a Pro Tour 1996 Filler card, should have been this:

ImageImage

Logic is totally respected in the "Gold Filler Card" from: 2003 World Championships Wolfgang Eder deck

ImageImage

Then, I try to retrieve more info about the M Black "Filler Card", from the internet, and I was asking this to few owners:

Did you find yourself a M Filler card from a Pro Tour 1996 Box set ?

and I did get those answers:

Yes, from an Urza's Block preconstructed decks, but don't remember which one.
Yes, from an Urza's Legacy booster.
Yes, from a Mercadian Masques Booster or Mercadian Masques Theme Decks.

that leads to my question number 2:

Does any members ever find a M Black filler in any Urza Block booster or Preconstructed decks ?

I just asked a Member owning all the Urza Saga Sheets C/U/R and Preconstructed sheets, do you have a M Filler on any of them, and the answer is NO

So, if anyone owning Urza's Legacy, Urza Destiny, or Mercadian Masques C/U/R and Foil C/U/R and preconstructed decks Uncut sheets of those can let me know. Already, the Foil Urza's Destiny Sheets don't have a M Filler card as they carry the: Black Round Corner Foil Star Filler Card

ImageImage

M WHITE BORDER - M AND CIRCLE WHITE- GREY FILLER CARD VERSION 1

Now, let's go to the second M filler card that was found:
M White Border - M and Circle White - Grey Filler Card Version 1

ImageImage

Now, we are in twilight zone :) Nothing in common with the M Black filler card, except the "M" , the "Ring" positioned at the same space, and the MTG Standard back:

ImageImage

According to the owners of the 10 existing, they come from Pro Tour 1996 Box set, well that's over 12 years now that the info has been added to Magiclibrarities, and if you ask the question to anyone, that's the reference been used systematically when people don't know or remember :) Again, no one could tell me, I opened one myself from a Pro Tour 1996.

M CIRCLE - BLACK FILLER CARD

The third M filler card that was found, is: M Circle - Black Filler Card
This one is the second rarest one, we have over 100 M Black Filler card, 10
M White Border - M and Circle White - Grey Filler Card , and only 2 of this one so far:

ImageImage

Better use the Illuminate tool for this one:

ImageImage

Now, let's compare to the M Black Filler card:

ImageImage

They have in common the "M" , the "Ring" positioned at the same space, and the MTG Standard back, so looks like is an extremely Rare Very Dark version of the M Black Filler card. As, the 2 owners are members of Magiclibrarities, didn't find it themselves, when asked to the seller;: Where does it comes from: Pro Tour 1996 Box set, did you opened it yourself: NO, again thanks Magiclibrarities for that traditional answer that everybody is refering to now from the First M Black card.

M WHITE BORDER - M AND CIRCLE WHITE- GREY FILLER CARD VERSION 2

Now, let's finish with the fourth one that was discovered not so long ago:

http://www.magiclibrarities.net/forum/v ... ke++filler

M White Border - M and Circle White - Grey Filler Card Version 2. This for now the Rarest, only 1 known to exist.

ImageImage

Let's compare with the M White Border - M and Circle White - Grey Filler Card Version 1:

ImageImage

They have everything in common the "M" , the "Ring" positioned at the same space, and the MTG Standard back but the dot pattern is not the same at all. I did ask to the Ebay owner the traditional "Where does it comes from", "Did you opened it yourself":
- Pro Tour 1996 BoxSet
- No

So to resume, we have 4 Different M Filler , supposed to come from Pro Tour 1996 Box sets or else, knowing that on an uncut sheet, you have Only one kind of filler card per Edition or Extension (but a same filler card style can be used on multiples Extensions, example: Black Border Filler Card, at least 8 Edition or Extensions)

In the M Dark Family we have:

ImageImage

And the M Light Family, we have:

ImageImage

That leads to my question number 3, if proven that they don't come from any Uncut sheets either from:
Pro Tour 1996
Urza's Legacy block C/U/R and Foil C/U/R and preconstructed decks
Mercadian Masques C/U/R and Foil C/U/R and preconstructed decks

Can it be that those M "Fillers" are not fillers but some Test Prints of some kinds, to test the back of the Pro Tour 1996 back or else, but to my knowledge the only MTG card that have a M circle is this one.
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Post by Neuron » Tue Apr 28, 2015 8:06 pm

The above mentioned arguments are very reasonable. The M cards have always been exceptional compared to other fillers, no other one shows something that could be called a picture or a logo.

The cards can hardly come from PT 96 decks because they aren’t gold bordered. The cutting machines would have to work extremely exactly (which wasn’t the case in the 90s), otherwise there would be a sliver of the other color visible on either the M cards or the adjacent PT cards. For the same reason, the white bordered cards cannot come from Urza or Masques block, if these are fillers, they must be from a white bordered set. The “M White Border - M and Circle White - Grey Filler Card Version 2” with different print pattern can’t be even from these, if the pattern is really different.
The only cards that qualify for being fillers at all are the standard black “M Filler Card“ and „M White Border - M and Circle White - Grey Filler Card Version 1“ and only the first can be from the stated sources:

Mercadian Masques booster (and Urza’s Saga booster): This can be ruled out by checking the rarity breakdown. There are 110 rare, 110 uncommon and 110 common cards. I have heard of 10 x 11 sheets, so if such were used there is no space for a filler.

Urza’s Legacy booster: I haven’t seen any UL uncut sheet so far, but we know the UD foil uncommon sheets in Japanese and French:

http://magiclibrarities.net/forum/viewt ... se+prophet

These have 11 filler slots, so this is the place where a chance for the M filler might be. Urza’s Legacy had an English Belgium and a USA print run. As far as I know, the European languages are made in Belgium and the Asian in the USA, so it would be helpful to know to which language the person who claims UL boosters refers to.
If he says the “M Filler Card“ is from a Belgium UL booster, the edges must be back cut and standard rounded (i. e. like Mercadian Masques cards). If it should be from a USA booster, the egdes must be front cut, a bit sharper than normal and the black border on the back very dark and glossy.

Urza's Block preconstructed decks: UD decks are printed on 10x12 sheets (see link above), which again leaves no space for a filler. Although there is no guarantee that UL decks are printed the same way, it’s unlikely that they changed the method within the block. If it still was, also here it’s crucial to know to which language the person refers to. To my knowledge, only the Japanese preconstructed decks are made in the USA. Preconstructed decks are all front cut, the Belgium versions have standard rounded corners.

Mercadian Masques preconstructed decks: Here we know little about. It’s possible that these were printed on 11x11 sheets and had a filler slot. If so, the “M Filler Card“ must be front cut with normal rounded corners, as all languages are made in Belgium.

By checking all these features, there is a possibility to prove if what the people claim is possible at all.
Even if it should turn out that the one M card matches with all statements, there are still the two other cards for which I see no way how they could be fillers. The „M White Border - M and Circle White - Grey Filler Card Version 1“ could theoretically be from 6th Edition, Starter 1999/2000 or P3K products, I haven’t checked the card number and rarity breakdown so far.

All in all, a conclusion is difficult: With more than 100 black M cards in existence, it’s hard to believe that this one has leaked out as a test print in such numbers. On the other hand, it’s so similar to the others unlikely to be fillers that one is tempted to see it as a test print, too. There were prototype presses which produced cards in a different size; this could be checked to strengthen test print hypothesis.
Last edited by Neuron on Wed Apr 29, 2015 1:41 pm, edited 1 time in total.

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Post by dragsamou » Wed Apr 29, 2015 7:28 am

Hi Ron

Very interesting post, I will comment on few things. Let's go from the very beginning, why the "From Pro Tour 1996". Out of all the MTG cards existing only 2 have the "M" Logo on the back:

Pro Tour 1996
http://www.magiclibrarities.net/490-rar ... index.html

World Championships Decks from 1997 till 1999
http://www.magiclibrarities.net/576-rar ... index.html

ImageImage

Point is that I don't know anyone owning Pro Tour 1996 Uncut sheets, to verify if a M Filler is on them. I think that the probability is extremely low, simply because, they are not gold bordered, and they have a regular MTG back. I don't know also anyone that told me: "Yes, I opened a Pro Tour 1996 Box Set and find that filler", I have asked around 25 people so far.

So, let's go to the others answers that I did get over the years and info collected over the internet and with a time frame:
Some set around Exodus or Urza's Saga
RATH BLOCK
Exodus (143 cards): June 1998

URZA BLOCK
Urza's Saga (350 cards): October 1998
Urza's Legacy (143 cards): February 1999
Urza's Destiny (143 cards): June 1999

MASQUES BLOCK
Mercadian Masques (350 cards): October 1999

We know that the best way to find out where a filler comes from is by looking at Uncut sheets: Rare/Uncommon/Common non-foil and Foil and Preconstructed Decks

Exodus Uncut Sheets Non Foil: To be find

Urza Saga: All the non-foil sheets have been verified, even the Lightning Dragon Urza Saga Promos Foil uncut sheet from 1998.

Urza's Legacy: Not from Urza's Legacy Foil Uncommon sheet. Others to be find.

Urza's Destiny: Foil Rare and Foil Uncommon sheet have been verified, the filler is the: Black Round Corner Foil Star Filler Card or the Square version

One more info, all the M filler cards that I have seen came from the US, so the probability that they eventually came from Made in US boosters is high.

One thing is interesting:

M Circle - Black Filler Card: Only 2 are known to exist. I did get mine from Japan and the other owner as well.

M White Border - M and Circle White - Grey Filler Card Version 2: Only one known to exist came also from Japan.

I mentioned "Test Prints" of some kind, meaning it can be a "Test Print" for the back of the Pro Tour 1996 Box Set or eventually World Championships Decks from 1997. Another possibility, some kind of Support cards or Advertisement "Test Print" that doesn't exist or was never used and included in MTG products or affiliated. Example some of the Amigo Advertisement Cards front or back:
http://www.magiclibrarities.net/847-rar ... mages.html

Regarding Uncut sheets and according to info, I did get:

All the early sets, without exception, were printed on 11*11 sheets.

Sets printed on two sheets included Arabian Nights, Antiquities, The Dark, Fallen Empires, Homelands and Chronicles.

Sets printed on three sheets include Alpha, Beta, Unlimited, Revised and Legends.

Sets printed on four sheets included Fourth Edition, Ice Age and Mirage.

Around the time of Alliances they went to a 10*11 grid. The large sets stayed that way for some time - but don't ask about 5E, because I have no idea how they managed 437 cards.

It looks like they switched back to 11x11 sheets between 9th and 10th editions.
Last edited by dragsamou on Wed Apr 29, 2015 4:04 pm, edited 2 times in total.
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Post by berkumps » Wed Apr 29, 2015 2:35 pm

dragsamou wrote:M Circle - Black Filler Card: Only 2 are known to exist. I did get mine from Japan while the other owner get it from the US
I got mine from Japan also. Not sure if I'm the person you were thinking got it from the US? If not, then there are 3 known now.

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Post by dragsamou » Wed Apr 29, 2015 2:41 pm

berkumps wrote:
dragsamou wrote:M Circle - Black Filler Card: Only 2 are known to exist. I did get mine from Japan while the other owner get it from the US
I got mine from Japan also. Not sure if I'm the person you were thinking got it from the US? If not, then there are 3 known now.
Hi Mark

So both of them coming from Japan, I thought you did get yours from the US. So will edit the previous comment. Anything else you can add to try to solve that real mystery?
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Post by dragsamou » Wed Apr 29, 2015 4:02 pm

I could find a pic of the Foil Urza's Legacy Italian Uncommon sheet no M Filler card but the last row (11) has:

-2 English Foil Plains Urza Saga Arena Promos 1999
-2 English Foil Island Urza Saga Arena Promos 1999
-2 English Foil Swamp Urza Saga Arena Promos 2000
-2 English Foil Mountain Urza Saga Arena Promos 2000
-2 English Foil Forest Urza Saga Arena Promos 2000

Can't tell if with Medium or Large shooting Star. Nice to know anyway.
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Post by Neuron » Fri May 01, 2015 4:49 pm

dragsamou wrote:I could find a pic of the Foil Urza's Legacy Italian Uncommon sheet no M Filler card but the last row (11) has:

-2 English Foil Plains Urza Saga Arena Promos 1999
-2 English Foil Island Urza Saga Arena Promos 1999
-2 English Foil Swamp Urza Saga Arena Promos 2000
-2 English Foil Mountain Urza Saga Arena Promos 2000
-2 English Foil Forest Urza Saga Arena Promos 2000

Can't tell if with Medium or Large shooting Star. Nice to know anyway.
Interesting, although I'm not sure if one can extrapolate from foil sheets to regular.

For the 5th Edition sheets, I calculated a bit. According to Salvationwiki, there are 165 Common, 132 Uncommon and 132 Rare.

165 = 11 x 15
132 = 11 x 12

This is either coincidence or - again no space for fillers.

I remembered that test prints can sneak into boosters, as it was the case for some of the specimen cards. So i wondered if the filler section says "from XYZ booster", does this just mean that it was pulled from the respective booster or does it really imply it was printed on the same sheet?

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Post by dragsamou » Fri May 01, 2015 5:28 pm

Neuron wrote:
dragsamou wrote:I could find a pic of the Foil Urza's Legacy Italian Uncommon sheet no M Filler card but the last row (11) has:

-2 English Foil Plains Urza Saga Arena Promos 1999
-2 English Foil Island Urza Saga Arena Promos 1999
-2 English Foil Swamp Urza Saga Arena Promos 2000
-2 English Foil Mountain Urza Saga Arena Promos 2000
-2 English Foil Forest Urza Saga Arena Promos 2000

Can't tell if with Medium or Large shooting Star. Nice to know anyway.
Interesting, although I'm not sure if one can extrapolate from foil sheets to regular.

For the 5th Edition sheets, I calculated a bit. According to Salvationwiki, there are 165 Common, 132 Uncommon and 132 Rare.

165 = 11 x 15
132 = 11 x 12

This is either coincidence or - again no space for fillers.

I remembered that test prints can sneak into boosters, as it was the case for some of the specimen cards. So i wondered if the filler section says "from XYZ booster", does this just mean that it was pulled from the respective booster or does it really imply it was printed on the same sheet?
Hi Ron

I never extrapolate, Regular uncut sheet, Foil uncut sheet, Preconstructed uncut sheet, and even Full Promos Uncut sheets are different.

As, I just add a new filler, I always mentioned from which booster or starter, or theme decks it was coming from not on which Uncut sheet, you could find it (Except Filler that were Factory cut and coming from an Uncut sheet)
Last edited by dragsamou on Sat May 02, 2015 5:06 am, edited 1 time in total.
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Post by cataclysm80 » Sat May 02, 2015 4:51 am

Neuron wrote:
For the 5th Edition sheets, I calculated a bit. According to Salvationwiki, there are 165 Common, 132 Uncommon and 132 Rare.

165 = 11 x 15
132 = 11 x 12

This is either coincidence or - again no space for fillers.
I can confirm that some 5th edition sheets were 12 across by 11 cards high.
There is a picture of a Chinese 5th edition sheet with the wrong backs in the test prints section of the Rarities page.

It did not show any fillers.

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Post by cataclysm80 » Sat May 02, 2015 6:45 am

I suggest that we put a place on Librarities to display uncut sheets.
It would be very helpful in situations like this.

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Post by cataclysm80 » Sat May 02, 2015 6:51 am

Visions was printed on 3 sheets with no fillers.

I suspect that there were multiple sheet layouts available, but no proof yet.
Unlikely that other layouts would have fillers either.

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Post by cataclysm80 » Sat May 02, 2015 6:53 am

dragsamou wrote:I could find a pic of the Foil Urza's Legacy Italian Uncommon sheet no M Filler card but the last row (11) has:

-2 English Foil Plains Urza Saga Arena Promos 1999
-2 English Foil Island Urza Saga Arena Promos 1999
-2 English Foil Swamp Urza Saga Arena Promos 2000
-2 English Foil Mountain Urza Saga Arena Promos 2000
-2 English Foil Forest Urza Saga Arena Promos 2000

Can't tell if with Medium or Large shooting Star. Nice to know anyway.
Interesting that two different years of Arena Promos came on the same sheet.

You said there was no filler, but I only see 10 cards listed to fill the 11 spaces on the sheet.

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Post by cataclysm80 » Sat May 02, 2015 6:57 am

Very odd that one of the fillers has a different print pattern. That should be investigated for authenticity. The only cards I've seen with a different pattern were Alternate 4th Edition cards.

At some point the resolution improved to a smaller pattern, but it was still the rosette pattern.

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Post by cataclysm80 » Sat May 02, 2015 7:02 am

Neuron wrote: I remembered that test prints can sneak into boosters, as it was the case for some of the specimen cards.
I would think that the only way for test prints to sneak into boosters is if the test prints are printed in the filler space(s) of a sheet.
If that is the case, the only difference between these test prints and fillers is the intention of whether they should be saved or discarded.

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Post by cataclysm80 » Sat May 02, 2015 7:05 am

dragsamou wrote: Point is that I don't know anyone owning Pro Tour 1996 Uncut sheets, to verify if a M Filler is on them. I think that the probability is extremely low, simply because, they are not gold bordered, and they have a regular MTG back. I don't know also anyone that told me: "Yes, I opened a Pro Tour 1996 Box Set and find that filler", I have asked around 25 people so far.
If we are pretty sure that the Pro Tour 1996 info is incorrect, it should probably be removed from Librarities so as not to mislead people in the future.

Tav

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