I have noticed that the description in Rarities of these tokens has changed over the last year or so. There is now discussion that there were multiple printings, with the inference that there were multiple legal printings. These two series also happen to be the two where there were apparently unauthorized reprints made (probably at the same times the imitation Wurm tokens were produced, since the quality is similar).
Has there ever been any kind of survey as to how many different known legal printings there were for each series (at least descriptions of the general differences), or to how many different unauthorized reprints there might have been? And has anyone ever seen a "suspect" token other than the Wurm token that wasn't a copy of a card in the 7th or 8th series?
7th and 8th series Crazy Clown (Minagishi) Variations
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bigfatkitty
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Re: 7th and 8th series Crazy Clown (Minagishi) Variations
Hi Henry.hammr7 wrote:I have noticed that the description in Rarities of these tokens has changed over the last year or so. There is now discussion that there were multiple printings, with the inference that there were multiple legal printings. These two series also happen to be the two where there were apparently unauthorized reprints made (probably at the same times the imitation Wurm tokens were produced, since the quality is similar).
Has there ever been any kind of survey as to how many different known legal printings there were for each series (at least descriptions of the general differences), or to how many different unauthorized reprints there might have been? And has anyone ever seen a "suspect" token other than the Wurm token that wasn't a copy of a card in the 7th or 8th series?
The description of the Crazy Clown Minagishi Variations have not been changed, the info that you can find on the website have been there for the last 5/7 years.Only the sixth and eighth series are concerned with variations.Some fake Tokens coming from Italy, were offered on Ebay, but they are awfully easy to spot as they have a brownish border, some others came from Singapore, but only the eighth series was concerned, the main difference was in the colors.Different topics on the forum talk about it, I find this one back:
http://www.magiclibrarities.net/forum/v ... +minagishi
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hammr7
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I am quite familiar with that other thread, as I was a primary contributor to it.
When you say "Only the sixth and eighth series are concerned with variations" what exactly do you mean? Are you saying that no one has seen "variations" in 7th Series tokens? Or are you saying that any 7th Series variations must be fakes, since only 6th and 8th Series tokens have documented legitimate variations?
I ask because I believe I have two fake versions of 7th series tokens and two fake versions of 8th series tokens. I also have both light-back and dark-back versions of 7th series tokens that appear to be legitimate variations. My 6th and 8th series tokens seem relatively uniform. All the 8th series have color depth similar to the dark-backed 7th series.
In the other thread I detailed weight differences, based upon card stock thickness, as an indicator of the "unauthorized" tokens. Most of these "thinner" tokens also have the reddish-brown borders. But a better indicator seems to be print quality and detail, especially on the backs of the tokens. There is a minor but noticeable degradation of print quality around the lettering. And this applies to many black-bordered tokens.
A confirmation of this is that I have four copies of the unauthorized Wurm Token. All 4 show the minor degradation in print detail. All 4 are printed on the slightly thinner card stock. Two of the Wurm tokens are printed with reddish-brown borders, while two have black borders.
When you say "Only the sixth and eighth series are concerned with variations" what exactly do you mean? Are you saying that no one has seen "variations" in 7th Series tokens? Or are you saying that any 7th Series variations must be fakes, since only 6th and 8th Series tokens have documented legitimate variations?
I ask because I believe I have two fake versions of 7th series tokens and two fake versions of 8th series tokens. I also have both light-back and dark-back versions of 7th series tokens that appear to be legitimate variations. My 6th and 8th series tokens seem relatively uniform. All the 8th series have color depth similar to the dark-backed 7th series.
In the other thread I detailed weight differences, based upon card stock thickness, as an indicator of the "unauthorized" tokens. Most of these "thinner" tokens also have the reddish-brown borders. But a better indicator seems to be print quality and detail, especially on the backs of the tokens. There is a minor but noticeable degradation of print quality around the lettering. And this applies to many black-bordered tokens.
A confirmation of this is that I have four copies of the unauthorized Wurm Token. All 4 show the minor degradation in print detail. All 4 are printed on the slightly thinner card stock. Two of the Wurm tokens are printed with reddish-brown borders, while two have black borders.
Hi Henryhammr7 wrote:I am quite familiar with that other thread, as I was a primary contributor to it.
When you say "Only the sixth and eighth series are concerned with variations" what exactly do you mean? Are you saying that no one has seen "variations" in 7th Series tokens? Or are you saying that any 7th Series variations must be fakes, since only 6th and 8th Series tokens have documented legitimate variations?
I ask because I believe I have two fake versions of 7th series tokens and two fake versions of 8th series tokens. I also have both light-back and dark-back versions of 7th series tokens that appear to be legitimate variations. My 6th and 8th series tokens seem relatively uniform. All the 8th series have color depth similar to the dark-backed 7th series.
In the other thread I detailed weight differences, based upon card stock thickness, as an indicator of the "unauthorized" tokens. Most of these "thinner" tokens also have the reddish-brown borders. But a better indicator seems to be print quality and detail, especially on the backs of the tokens. There is a minor but noticeable degradation of print quality around the lettering. And this applies to many black-bordered tokens.
A confirmation of this is that I have four copies of the unauthorized Wurm Token. All 4 show the minor degradation in print detail. All 4 are printed on the slightly thinner card stock. Two of the Wurm tokens are printed with reddish-brown borders, while two have black borders.
Sorry I have written 8th Series instead of 7th Series in the previous post.
I'm surprised that you have Fake 7Th Series Tokens, different print run of that serie took place, so there's can be some difference, can you explain in which way they look fake to you.8th series there was a lot of Fakes that were done.
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hammr7
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Alexis,
Give me a day or two. I'll get some high resolution scans of the variations in 7th series tokens so I can show you what I mean. If anyone knows a good free place to post large graphics let me know, as I don't currently have a place to link these to.
It has been tough to document these variations, since it is so hard to accumulate enough of the tokens of each variation. I am finally getting to the point where I have enough for meaningful evaluation of each series. Even with my recent acquisition of BigFatKitty's token collection (Thank you Bruce!) it will be a while longer before I can do statistically significant evaluations on individual tokens.
Give me a day or two. I'll get some high resolution scans of the variations in 7th series tokens so I can show you what I mean. If anyone knows a good free place to post large graphics let me know, as I don't currently have a place to link these to.
It has been tough to document these variations, since it is so hard to accumulate enough of the tokens of each variation. I am finally getting to the point where I have enough for meaningful evaluation of each series. Even with my recent acquisition of BigFatKitty's token collection (Thank you Bruce!) it will be a while longer before I can do statistically significant evaluations on individual tokens.
Hi Henryhammr7 wrote:Alexis,
Give me a day or two. I'll get some high resolution scans of the variations in 7th series tokens so I can show you what I mean. If anyone knows a good free place to post large graphics let me know, as I don't currently have a place to link these to.
It has been tough to document these variations, since it is so hard to accumulate enough of the tokens of each variation. I am finally getting to the point where I have enough for meaningful evaluation of each series. Even with my recent acquisition of BigFatKitty's token collection (Thank you Bruce!) it will be a while longer before I can do statistically significant evaluations on individual tokens.
I use this one, and I'm very happy with it:
http://photobucket.com/
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hammr7
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I just wanted to update this thread a bit. It will take me longer than anticipated to process my scans for posting.
As I have stated before, there appear to be a number of unauthorized reprints of Crazy Clown tokens. To the best of my knowledge, these forgeries are limited to the seventh and eighth series tokens. I use as a basis my collection of tokens, which is quite extensive from the third series to the present.
There are numerous discrepancies in the "unauthorized" reprints which set them apart from the normal variations I have noted within the "authorized" reprinting of these series of tokens. As a caution, it is obvious from the quality of the unauthorized reprints (except for the color on the brownish border variant) that the unauthorized tokens were made professionally. They were likely produced from very high quality scans (perhaps 1200 dpi) and were likely printed on production presses.
Beyond the weight and card stock thickness discrepancies, which I have documented before, there are a couple of additional artwork differences which can be noted under magnification. These include:
1. Real Crazy Clown tokens, going back to 3rd series (the limits of my collection), have consistent borders. They appear to be solid colored, but under high enough magnification can be seen to contain tiny areas of white. This is a result of the print process used on the tokens. On legitimate Crazy Clown tokens the entire black token surface is printed at the same time, rather than printing the borders as a separate process. In contrast, the "unauthorized" tokens, both brown and black bordered, have solid-colored borders, even under decent magnification. In this regard the unauthorized tokens are like normal Magic cards, not like normal Crazy Clown Tokens.
2. The artwork and text in unauthorized tokens are not quite as crisp or as focused as real tokens. This is noticed most in fine details where there is a big color contrast. On card fronts this can be best seen in the detail of the horizontal line at the bottom of the flavor text (before the attributed source). On real tokens the horizontal line is quite uniform, while on the reprints its detail is not nearly as uniform. On the token back, this can be seen along the edges of the "Magic the Gathering Token Card" lettering. This is where the high resolution scan was weakest, and you again get a less uniform detail that looks approximately the same to the unaided eye.
I'll provide some scans showing these differences soon.
As I have stated before, there appear to be a number of unauthorized reprints of Crazy Clown tokens. To the best of my knowledge, these forgeries are limited to the seventh and eighth series tokens. I use as a basis my collection of tokens, which is quite extensive from the third series to the present.
There are numerous discrepancies in the "unauthorized" reprints which set them apart from the normal variations I have noted within the "authorized" reprinting of these series of tokens. As a caution, it is obvious from the quality of the unauthorized reprints (except for the color on the brownish border variant) that the unauthorized tokens were made professionally. They were likely produced from very high quality scans (perhaps 1200 dpi) and were likely printed on production presses.
Beyond the weight and card stock thickness discrepancies, which I have documented before, there are a couple of additional artwork differences which can be noted under magnification. These include:
1. Real Crazy Clown tokens, going back to 3rd series (the limits of my collection), have consistent borders. They appear to be solid colored, but under high enough magnification can be seen to contain tiny areas of white. This is a result of the print process used on the tokens. On legitimate Crazy Clown tokens the entire black token surface is printed at the same time, rather than printing the borders as a separate process. In contrast, the "unauthorized" tokens, both brown and black bordered, have solid-colored borders, even under decent magnification. In this regard the unauthorized tokens are like normal Magic cards, not like normal Crazy Clown Tokens.
2. The artwork and text in unauthorized tokens are not quite as crisp or as focused as real tokens. This is noticed most in fine details where there is a big color contrast. On card fronts this can be best seen in the detail of the horizontal line at the bottom of the flavor text (before the attributed source). On real tokens the horizontal line is quite uniform, while on the reprints its detail is not nearly as uniform. On the token back, this can be seen along the edges of the "Magic the Gathering Token Card" lettering. This is where the high resolution scan was weakest, and you again get a less uniform detail that looks approximately the same to the unaided eye.
I'll provide some scans showing these differences soon.
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