Fake Jun Minagishi tokens

simo_74 · Post by **simo_74** » Thu Oct 16, 2008 3:36 pm

Hi,

I have respectively bought from two different sellers 15 and 16 different tokens of Jun Minagishi, but I have noticed evident differences among the twice.
the first group cards have the external edge of black color and the darkest tonality of the back, while the second group cards have the external edge of black/reddish color and the clearest tonality of the back.
following the photos of the two cards, but in live the difference of color is more evident.

http://i165.photobucket.com/albums/u66/ ... agishi.jpg

http://i165.photobucket.com/albums/u66/ ... agishi.jpg

unfortunately I fear that one of the two groups are fake, but I am not so sure cause the number is very limited and relatively low cost of the cards.. I hope someone give me an help

Thanks in advance.

Cheers
Simone

yawg07 · Post by **yawg07** » Thu Oct 16, 2008 3:39 pm

The fakes are the "brown" instead of black ones, the one on the right is a fake.
A lot of Minagishi fakes have been coming from Italy recently.

simo_74 · Post by **simo_74** » Thu Oct 16, 2008 3:51 pm

unfortunately results what I was afraid.

Thanks Simone

jamesbond · Post by **jamesbond** » Thu Oct 16, 2008 6:32 pm

They are thousands and thousands of fakes, 99,999% of tokens on ebay are fake. Real Minagishi are very rare.

fvzappa · Post by **fvzappa** » Thu Oct 16, 2008 7:40 pm

I'm glad I bought a few sets of them that were offered exclusively to us members a while back. These are a great tool for knowing the real deal.

house_atreides · Post by **house_atreides** » Thu Oct 16, 2008 7:55 pm

Hi,

we have some early ones for sale - and theyre real.

I got them from a Level 3 Judge, now Head of OP at WoTC in the UK, after the Sydney Worlds.

I'll have them ar Spiel, if anyone is interested.

Cheers,
Karen
House Atreides

hammr7 · Post by **hammr7** » Thu Oct 16, 2008 9:48 pm

I have spent a great deal of time analyzing Minagishi tokens, as I have one of the largest collections in the world, with over 300 that I know are real, and close to 100 that I know are fake. I haven't purchased any recently (my last purchase was obtaining Ralph Herold's collection), but purchased from all sorts of sources, including those on eBay, when I was more active. The results below apply to all the "abnormal" tokens I uncovered from the 6th through 8th series tokens.

All of the fake tokens that I have seen appear to be from the 7th, and 8th series. I have one 6th series token that is abnormal, but I can't definitely say it is a fake. I have heard rumors that there are also fakes from the 4th and 5th series, but I haven't encountered any of these personally. I haven't seen, or heard of, any fakes from the earliest series, or from anything newer.

Of the fakes I have encountered there are two distinct groups. One group is the reddish-brown (RB) bordered cards. These have normally been attributed to Italian sources, and include my copies of the infamous imitation "Wurm" token. The other apparent fakes I have discovered, however, are black-bordered, just like the real tokens.

Both groups appear to have utilized the same printing process as the original tokens. The RB color is an obvious indication of one set of fakes. What seems to differentiate both fake reprints from the originals are the paper stock they are printed on.

I checked the weights of the individual cards on a scale that was accurate to better than 0.001 grams, then purchased a high-end thickness gauge to confirm any thickness difference. I'm trying to find my research results (The file is mislabeled on a backup drive), but I do remember that the paper used was off by a small amount in both weight (~0.1 grams) and thickness (~0.005"). The difference wasn't huge (it represents about 6% of weight and thickness), but was extremely consistent, across the 6th, 7th and 8th series tokens.

From my results, my best guess is that someone got their hands on the original artwork or print plates for the reprints, and had access to the same type of press (perhaps even the exact press that was used for the originals).

The RB bordered tokens are likely either a horrendous color-match, or more likely an attempt to use composite color inks in place of black. There may also be an aspect of fading from utilizing inferior quality print inks.

The black border fakes are exactly the same as the RB bordered cards in terms of weight, and my guess is that they were a different attempt at reproducing Minagishi tokens. They are much rarer (at least in my experience) than the RB borders.

hammr7 · Post by **hammr7** » Thu Oct 16, 2008 10:24 pm

Just found my research spreadsheet:

For cards that have double sided printing:

Fakes average ~2.12 grams (+/- 0.02 grams one standard deviation, maximum +/- 0.05 grams), and no fake weighs less than 2.07 grams.

Real tokens average ~1.97 grams (+/- 0.02 grams one standard deviation, maximum +/- 0.05 grams), and no real token weighs more than 2.02 grams.

The weight differential is associated with a thickness difference. The fakes are approximately 1.0 gauge (0.001") thicker than the real tokens. Depending upon the thickness gauge you use (based upon the size of the "foot" measuring the thickness) the actual thickness will vary. But the differential will be consistent between real and fake tokens.

The weight of the real tokens is the same (within the listed range) for Jose Magic, 4th, 5th, 6th, 7th, 8th and 9th series tokens.

The weight for the fakes is the same (within the listed range) for the imitation Wurm, 7th, and 8th series tokens.

I only have one token from 6th series that appears to be off, and it needs additional evaluation before I can make any blanket statements regarding it.

simo_74 · Post by **simo_74** » Fri Oct 17, 2008 8:51 pm

thanks to everyone for the answers.. It's very probable can be also useful to other members..

hammr7 as soon as I'll recover an accurate balance I'll make the test of the weight too and then I'll show you the results. I've got about thirty tokens in totally including the famous fake wurm (surely I can confirm the statistic).

I bought the first group of tokens from a collector in the states one year ago and seemed me very reliable, while the second group just bought I already had a reasonable suspicious, but I've not written anything to avoid influences, but you have immediately confirmed me.

House Atreides, I'll send you an email for some cards that I'm looking for..

Cheers
Simone

simo_74 · Post by **simo_74** » Mon Oct 27, 2008 8:52 pm

Hi,
I've finally weighed the tokens with a balance of laboratory and I've to confirm how written by hammr7:

ORIGINALS
Cat Token 1.9648 g
Ape Token 1.9496 g
Butterfly Token 1.9765 g

FAKE (Brown)
Butterfly Token 2.1860 g
Saproling Token 2.1540 g
Angel Token 2.1644 g

I've been able to weigh only 3x but I believe the trend is maintained.
Simone

magic-belgium · Post by **magic-belgium** » Mon Oct 27, 2008 10:47 pm

Hank,

Can you tell me how many different ones you have, per series ?

I have a lot too, but don't know if my collection is complete.

Thanks !

hammr7 · Post by **hammr7** » Tue Oct 28, 2008 4:33 pm

I don't have any tokens from the first or second series, and I don't have either of the test foils. I'm still looking for these.

For everything else, at least through Series 13, my goal was 4 of each, since I tend to collect everything in 4s.

I currently have at least two sets of everything, except for a few 7th and 8th series cards (after subtracting out the fake ones). I have 11 sets of 10th edition, 5 sets of each subsequent offering, 4 sets of Jose Magic, and 5 sets of the 4th edition, except for the 5 goblins (2) and 5 zombies (3).

mwagee · Post by **mwagee** » Wed Nov 12, 2008 7:43 pm

I have a set of 10th Minagishi tokens that I've been meaning to sell.
There is a signature on the back of one of the cards in the set.

Drop me a line if you're interested.

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