Inquiries about Art misprints

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cataclysm80
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Post by cataclysm80 » Mon Oct 14, 2013 5:24 pm

Neuron wrote: EDIT: After measuring the frames, I found that the cards are really miscut. The frame errors I reported do not exist. Nevertheless, they indicate the edition. Thank you for your hint!
I see what you're talking about now. Thanks for the pictures!

Here is a thread with information on miscuts...
http://www.magiclibrarities.net/forum/v ... php?t=9084

Your miscuts are the Step 2 a type (and will be discussed further in the miscut thread mentioned above). The miscuts you posted are miscut similarly to one another because they are all Warp Artifact and that card is located in the same place on each sheet. Several sheets must have been miscut. Those miscut warp artifacts are probably from the same set, but it's not something we can count on for certain. Miscuts happen in other sets also, and it is doubtfull that all the sheets in that set were miscut. The not miscut Warp Artifacts could be from the same set as the miscut ones. The El-Hajjaj misprint mmgun posted on page 3 of this thread isn't miscut. I'll check my own when I get home. I'd like a closer look at your Warp Artifacts, but I can't seem to download your original file from the photo site you used. Would you please email me a copy of the original scan?

Many Thanks!

Tav
Last edited by cataclysm80 on Mon Oct 14, 2013 6:08 pm, edited 1 time in total.

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Post by cataclysm80 » Mon Oct 14, 2013 5:43 pm

I received the original, thanks for emailing it to me!
While I disagree that the cards being miscut identifies the set, I measured the vertical alignment of the card name, and you did correctly identify all of the cards in the scan.
Top left & Top center are both German Unlimited (Revised, 3rd, whatever you want to call it).
Top right is the misprint from 4th Edition and happens to be miscut
The middle row is all 4th Edition and happens to be miscut. (note: the card on the right of the middle row is miscut differently, being clined to the left instead of to the right like the others.)
Both cards on the bottom are Introductory Two Player Set of coarse.

Tav

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Post by cataclysm80 » Mon Oct 14, 2013 5:58 pm

I have to admit that I'm surprised to find that there exist both a regular printed El-Hajjaj & Warp Artifact from 4th along with the misprint.

I think this means that the misprint was corrected at some point during the print run.

Tav
Last edited by cataclysm80 on Mon Oct 14, 2013 9:42 pm, edited 1 time in total.

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Post by dragsamou » Mon Oct 14, 2013 6:30 pm

cataclysm80 wrote:I have to admit that I'm surprised to find that there exist both a regular printed El-Hajjaj & Warp Artifact from 4th along with the misprint.

I think this means that either the misprint was corrected at some point during the print run, or that one of those cards appeared on the sheet twice (or possibly on two sheets once?) I'm going to look around for pictures of uncut sheets since that would be easier to prove or disprove.

Tav
Hi Tav

The funny part, will be when I will be on the lookout to get the different versions....Aspirin box is ready in advance :-D
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Post by cataclysm80 » Mon Oct 14, 2013 7:17 pm

Yes, I know what you mean Dragsamou, I will also need a regular print German 4th Warp Artifact & regular print German 4th El-Hajjaj to display next to my misprint. That's why I started this thread. (I might consider getting the German 3rd Edition ones also just for comparison sake, but mainly interested in the 4th Editions now that I know they exist.)

Tav

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Post by cataclysm80 » Mon Oct 14, 2013 7:22 pm

Tuomas was correct when he said that 4th Edition had 121 rares that were all printed on one sheet.
http://www.gatherer.wizards.com list 147 rares in 4th Edition because it includes cards that were printed in other sets as rares, but were uncommon or common in 4th Edition. For Example, Apprentice Wizard was a Rare when it was originally printed in The Dark, but it was reprinted in 4th Edition as a Common.

While researching this and looking at pictures of uncut sheets, I found an old page on the Wizards of the Coast website that specifies the El-Hajjaj/Warp Artifact misprint IS from German 4th and IS supposed to be a Warp Artifact. Here it is, straight from Wizards of the Coast German 4th Edition Spoiler List... http://www.wizards.com/magic/generic/ca ... erman.html
(Other foreign 4th spoiler lists are also available there if anyone wants to look at them.)

Furthermore, here is another Wizards of the Coast link confirming what we've found in this thread. The Manabarbs/Sedge Troll misprint IS from German Revised and IS supposed to be a Sedge Troll.
http://www.wizards.com/magic/generic/ca ... erman.html

There is no mention of the Drudge Skeletons/Swamp misprint. I think this is because those cards are on the sheet multiple times and regular print versions were printed simultaneously with the misprints. This particular artwork of Swamp appears on the Uncommon sheet twice. The misprint is probably from the Common sheet. If anyone has an uncut sheet of Commons from Revised (any language) I'd like to have a look.

Here are my thoughts,... I think that card placement on the sheet did not change between language printings. For example, this would mean that El-Hajjaj is the first card in the 6th row of the rare sheet for every language Revised was printed in, and El-Hajjaj was the sixth card in the bottom row of the rare sheet for every language 4th Edition was printed in. The art does not move around on the sheet between language printings of the same set, so each language will have all of the correct arts. The misprints are all text errors where the wrong text was put on the correct art. The art didn't change or move between languages, but the text had to be translated, and that is where the problems happened. Our findings seem to support this. Manabarbs/Sedge Troll was printed in the Sedge Troll location on the sheet. El-Hajjaj/Warp Artifact was printed in the Warp Artifact location on the sheet. If you expand to include others, you'll find that French Limited had an Aladdin's Ring printed in the Jandor's Ring location on the sheet. Spanish 4th Black Border had a Serra Angel printed in the Time Elemental location on the sheet and a Burrowing printed in the Strip Mine location on the sheet. Going Newer, you'll find Spanish Mirage had Reality Ripple printed in the Shaper Guildmage location on the sheet. I see a consistent pattern where the text is put on the wrong art during translation. Although difficult to prove, considering the pattern shown by the other misprints, I'm pretty sure that the Drudge Skeletons/Swamp is a Swamp with the wrong text, and that the German Limited Forest/Plains is a Plains with the wrong text.

Tav

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Post by Neuron » Mon Oct 14, 2013 11:54 pm

Hi Tav,

found a Revised uncut sheet.

http://www.flickr.com/photos/34829523@N ... /lightbox/

See also the pictures and what I wrote here:

http://www.magiclibrarities.net/forum/v ... php?t=9084

If you want any of my doubles of Warp Artifact; I can part with them.

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Post by dragsamou » Tue Oct 15, 2013 6:35 am

Neuron wrote:Hi Tav,

found a Revised uncut sheet.

http://www.flickr.com/photos/34829523@N ... /lightbox/

See also the pictures and what I wrote here:

http://www.magiclibrarities.net/forum/v ... php?t=9084

If you want any of my doubles of Warp Artifact; I can part with them.
Hi
Great find for the sheet, Tav's got first shot, but I will need the different Warp Artifact as well.
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Post by Neuron » Tue Oct 15, 2013 10:23 pm

Hi
Great find for the sheet, Tav's got first shot, but I will need the different Warp Artifact as well.
Okay, if Tav doesn't want them they are yours :)

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Post by cataclysm80 » Wed Oct 16, 2013 2:21 am

Neuron wrote:Hi Tav,

If you want any of my doubles of Warp Artifact; I can part with them.
Yes, that would be wonderful! I'd like any one of the miscut 4th Editions, and also one of the German Unlimited ones if that's possible. I recently posted a lengthy want list, and you may have other things I'm looking for also. If you have the time to check, then everything could ship in one package.
http://www.magiclibrarities.net/forum/v ... php?t=9091
Just let me know how much you'd like for whatever you have, and I'll pay you.

Tav

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Post by cataclysm80 » Wed Oct 16, 2013 3:31 am

dragsamou wrote:
Neuron wrote:
ende73 wrote:I am pretty sure (but this time 99% and not 101%) that I got regular WB German Drudge Skeletons from some of those same packs where I got the swamp misprint, and as I mentioned those packs were from 3rd edition (the one with Dual lands).
Hi Tav,

found a Revised uncut sheet.

http://www.flickr.com/photos/34829523@N ... /lightbox/
Hi
Great find for the sheet,
I agree, Great find on the sheet!

Regarding the Drudge Skeletons...
1. We have established that the misprint is from German Unlimited as some people here have personaly opened them in packs, and I have measured the vertical alignment of the card name.

2. We have found that a regular printed German Unlimited Drudge Skeletons does exist as someone here personaly opened them in packs and I have measured the vertical alignment of the card name on a scan posted here.

3. We have found that regular printed Swamp with the same artwork exist in both German Unlimited & German 4th Edition. Scans of both have been posted here and measured.

4. Looking at uncut sheets, There is one Drudge Skeleton and four of that version of Swamp. It is more probable that the misprint was in a Swamp location. If the misprint had been in the Drudge Skeleton location, then that would require the misprint be corrected before the end of the print run in order for us to have a regular print Drudge Skeleton from German Unlimited. The German spoiler list from the Wizards of the Coast website does not acknowledge the Drudge Skeleton/Swamp misprint, it DOES acknowledge the Manabarbs/Sedge Troll misprint. To the best of our knowledge, a correct version of the German Unlimited Sedge Troll does not exist. If Wizards of the Coast had corrected the Drudge Skeleton misprint, then they ALSO would have corrected the Sedge Troll misprint at the same time. We know that they are aware of the Sedge Troll misprint. Because we can not find a regular printed German Unlimited Sedge Troll, It suggests that no corrections were done during the German Unlimited Print run. This would point to the Drudge Skeleton/Swamp misprint having been printed in a Swamp location.

5. Of the 8 non-English text/art misprints, we can prove that 6 of them were printed in the position of the art on the sheet.

Tav

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Post by Neuron » Thu Oct 17, 2013 12:13 am

Regarding the Drudge Skeletons...
1. We have established that the misprint is from German Unlimited as some people here have personaly opened them in packs, and I have measured the vertical alignment of the card name.
That's true.
2. We have found that a regular printed German Unlimited Drudge Skeletons does exist as someone here personaly opened them in packs and I have measured the vertical alignment of the card name on a scan posted here.
You compared the misprint to the normal Drudge Skeletons and they had the same alignment, hadn't they!

3. We have found that regular printed Swamp with the same artwork exist in both German Unlimited & German 4th Edition. Scans of both have been posted here and measured.
You are right.

4. Looking at uncut sheets, There is one Drudge Skeleton and four of that version of Swamp. It is more probable that the misprint was in a Swamp location.
To argue only with probabilities is fine as long there is no evidence that could prove a conjecture wrong. But if there *is* any I think it's better to value the evidence above speculation.

If the misprint had been in the Drudge Skeleton location, then that would require the misprint be corrected before the end of the print run in order for us to have a regular print Drudge Skeleton from German Unlimited.
Of course. I start from that premise.

The German spoiler list from the Wizards of the Coast website does not acknowledge the Drudge Skeleton/Swamp misprint, it DOES acknowledge the Manabarbs/Sedge Troll misprint. To the best of our knowledge, a correct version of the German Unlimited Sedge Troll does not exist.
You are correct.

If Wizards of the Coast had corrected the Drudge Skeleton misprint, then they ALSO would have corrected the Sedge Troll misprint at the same time.
What makes you so sure about that? Perhaps you thought that someone of Wizards looked at all the cards in order to correct them. Then you would be right.
But what if they found the Skeletons incidentally or got it reported by the community and never checked the other cards?
If you look at the error Drudge Skeletons it's obvious on the very first sight it is a misprint while with Sedge Troll you really need to examine what's pictured on. If you would show the Sedge Troll misprint to someone unsuspecting I'm sure he would need quite a while to understand what's going on.
We know that they are aware of the Sedge Troll misprint. Because we can not find a regular printed German Unlimited Sedge Troll, It suggests that no corrections were done during the German Unlimited Print run.
Yes, it suggests, but it doesn't prove it. The only thing we can know for (almost!) sure is that no corrections were done on the SEDGE TROLL. Did you know that El-Hajjâj itself is a misprint? All German white borderd versions have two different errors in the name that weren't found despite the Warp Artifact misprint was. It's not required to postulate that either everything or nothing has to be corrected (or mentioned by Wizards).

5. Of the 8 non-English text/art misprints, we can prove that 6 of them were printed in the position of the art on the sheet.
That's right, but we can also prove two cases where the art resp. art frame was shifted: Serendib Efreet Revised and the Blue Hurricane. Thus, it's neither impossible nor very improbable to have the art in the wrong position.


Conclusion: If one argues only with probabilities based on other cases one could think that the Drudge Skeletons misprint is a text error. I also thought that until recently.

But realizing the facts


a. Swamp DU is not aligned the same as the Drudge Skeletons misprint.

b. Swamp 4th is not aligned the same as the Drudge Skeletons misprint.

c. Correct Drudge Skeletons DU *is* aligned the same as the Drudge Skeletons misprint. (This is as much more significant as the alignment varies between different DU cards [and so within 4th cards] so that you can only compare card X from DU and card X from 4th to be sure what set they are from.)


and bringing to mind it's mandatory that, in the case of a text error, the alignment between misprint and correct version may not vary, I cannot come to another opinion than Drudge Skeletons misprint is a picture error.


I would be insterested what you all following the discussion think about the two explanations. There are good arguments on both sides.

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Post by cataclysm80 » Fri Oct 18, 2013 4:55 am

Thanks for responding Neuron.
You compared the misprint to the normal Drudge Skeletons and they had the same alignment, hadn't they!
Yes

To argue only with probabilities is fine as long there is no evidence that could prove a conjecture wrong. But if there *is* any I think it's better to value the evidence above speculation.
Agreed

If you look at the error Drudge Skeletons it's obvious on the very first sight it is a misprint while with Sedge Troll you really need to examine what's pictured on. If you would show the Sedge Troll misprint to someone unsuspecting I'm sure he would need quite a while to understand what's going on.
I have to agree here also. A Land with a casting cost is very obviously a mistake, while the Manabarbs/Sedge Troll is less obvious. I suppose it's possible one could have been corrected without the other, but it would seem that Wizards would have mentioned the Drudge Skeletons/Swamp on the spoiler list if they had been aware of it. Wizards did mention other misprints.

Did you know that El-Hajjâj itself is a misprint? All German white borderd versions have two different errors in the name that weren't found despite the Warp Artifact misprint was.
I had heard this elsewhere. Would you please point out the errors? The only name difference I can see is that the little mark above the lowercase "a" is different.

Of the 8 non-English text/art misprints, we can prove that 6 of them were printed in the position of the art on the sheet.
That's right, but we can also prove two cases where the art resp. art frame was shifted: Serendib Efreet Revised and the Blue Hurricane. Thus, it's neither impossible nor very improbable to have the art in the wrong position.
Of the 9 text/art misprints, Serendib Efreet is the only English one, and the only one proven to have the wrong art. 6 others are proven to have the wrong text. Drudge Skeletons/Swamp & Forest/Plains are unproven. (If anyone has info on the Forest/Plains, I'd like to discuss that one also.) The Serendib Efreet mistake was made when the art & frame were organized into sheets for the first printing of Revised which was in English. The blue Hurricane was an accident that happened while correcting the Serendib Efreet. I still don't think the card art or card position on the sheet changed between language printings of the same set, only the words changed. IF that's true, it would mean that wrong art errors are only possible in the first printing of a set when the art & frame are first organized into sheets. (In this instance, we happen to know that English Revised was printed before any other languages, and that's when the Serendib Efreet art mistake was made.) IF the card art & card position on the sheet do not change between language printings, then all subsequent text/art errors would be text errors. Just to make it clear, I will say that this is a Theory, it is Not proven.

Here is another example to consider... Japanese Mirage also had an art error. Instead of Flood Plain, Japanese Mirage had an extra Crystal Vein. (The card also has Crystal Vein text, so it looks just like a regular Crystal Vein.) This mistake must have happened when the cards were being organized into sheets. Maybe this is evidence that Japanese was the first language that Mirage was printed in? Does anyone know if Mirage had simultaneous release in all languages?

Since that Japanese Crystal Vein should have been a Flood Plain, I suppose you could say that it has the wrong art AND the wrong text. I wonder what Squt would think of that?

Counting the Serendib, Hurricane, & Crystal Vein, that's 3 art errors vs. 6 known text errors, and still 1 Drudge Skeleton vs 4 Swamps on the sheet. Probability still favors the Swamp. (I agree that doesn't prove anything.)
a. Swamp DU is not aligned the same as the Drudge Skeletons misprint.
That is true. (and I think it's strange)
b. Swamp 4th is not aligned the same as the Drudge Skeletons misprint.
I have no reason to think they would be the same because they are from different sets, but I'd like a closer look before claiming either way. mmgun, if you're still following along, would you please post a scan of all 4 cards (Unlimited Swamp, 4th Swamp, Misprint Skeletons, Regular Skeletons). Your scans don't get fuzzy when I enlarge them really big. Thanks!

c. Correct Drudge Skeletons DU *is* aligned the same as the Drudge Skeletons misprint. (This is as much more significant as the alignment varies between different DU cards [and so within 4th cards] so that you can only compare card X from DU and card X from 4th to be sure what set they are from.)
Yes, the regular print is aligned the same as the misprint.

and bringing to mind it's mandatory that, in the case of a text error, the alignment between misprint and correct version may not vary, I cannot come to another opinion than Drudge Skeletons misprint is a picture error.
I'm not sure I agree with this one, but it shouldn't be very hard to check it out because I have misprint & correct of some of the 6 proven text errors. The Warp Artifacts posted here are also a good example.
I would be insterested what you all following the discussion think about the two explanations. There are good arguments on both sides.
I agree, both sides have merit. More voices would be a good thing.

Tav

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Post by mmgun » Fri Oct 18, 2013 9:04 am

cataclysm80 wrote:

Since that Japanese Crystal Vein should have been a Flood Plain, I suppose you could say that it has the wrong art AND the wrong text. I wonder what Squt would think of that?

Counting the Serendib, Hurricane, & Crystal Vein, that's 3 art errors vs. 6 known text errors, and still 1 Drudge Skeleton vs 4 Swamps on the sheet. Probability still favors the Swamp. (I agree that doesn't prove anything.)


Tav

The Spanish MM Eye of Ramos was also not on the original printsheet, but replaced by another card and could be ordered later by en exchange program of wotc.
Reference:
http://www.magiclibrarities.net/52-rari ... index.html

http://www.magiclibrarities.net/magic-l ... ogram.html

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Post by Neuron » Fri Oct 18, 2013 6:42 pm

Hi Tav, thank you for continuing.

A Land with a casting cost is very obviously a mistake, while the Manabarbs/Sedge Troll is less obvious. I suppose it's possible one could have been corrected without the other, but it would seem that Wizards would have mentioned the Drudge Skeletons/Swamp on the spoiler list if they had been aware of it.
If the Drudge Skeletons is a picture misprint Wizards didn't need to mention it, as the card with all abilities is still existing. With the text misprints a card would miss on the spoiler list and people couldn't play them as supposed.
We need to know for which reason the lists are, for players support only or also for collectors information.
I think it's the first, because I'm almost sure this blatant error was known by Wizards at least when they wrote the list (they also knew the harder to spot Sedge Troll). If their goal was to tell all misprints they should have noted the Skeletons as a text error, too. From this point of view the absence of it in the list is in favour for the picture hypothesis.
Would you please point out the errors? The only name difference I can see is that the little mark above the lowercase "a" is different.
In title and type there is an acute and in the textbox a grave accent, while the English El-Hajjâj has a circumflex.

The Serendib Efreet mistake was made when the art & frame were organized into sheets for the first printing of Revised which was in English. The blue Hurricane was an accident that happened while correcting the Serendib Efreet. I still don't think the card art or card position on the sheet changed between language printings of the same set, only the words changed. IF that's true, it would mean that wrong art errors are only possible in the first printing of a set when the art & frame are first organized into sheets. (In this instance, we happen to know that English Revised was printed before any other languages, and that's when the Serendib Efreet art mistake was made.) IF the card art & card position on the sheet do not change between language printings, then all subsequent text/art errors would be text errors. Just to make it clear, I will say that this is a Theory, it is Not proven.
This is indeed a good argument. I wish I could be in common with you, as I find it the more elegant explanation. However, it doesn't fit with the facts. If there are facts rationality tells me to prefer the facts.
Here is another example to consider... Japanese Mirage also had an art error. Instead of Flood Plain, Japanese Mirage had an extra Crystal Vein. (The card also has Crystal Vein text, so it looks just like a regular Crystal Vein.) This mistake must have happened when the cards were being organized into sheets. Maybe this is evidence that Japanese was the first language that Mirage was printed in? Does anyone know if Mirage had simultaneous release in all languages?
You can find a lot of foreign cards with partial english text in either title, card type or rulestext (see squt's site), but very few vice versa (all I know are two or three concerning the copyright clause and none of them are Asian). Those indicate that the first language the cards are designed in is English and the spoiler lists are sent to the translators for their work.
Thus, it seems that both the Flood Plain and the Eye of Ramos example questions the above thought that art and frame can't change between languages.
Quote:
and bringing to mind it's mandatory that, in the case of a text error, the alignment between misprint and correct version may not vary, I cannot come to another opinion than Drudge Skeletons misprint is a picture error.

I'm not sure I agree with this one, but it shouldn't be very hard to check it out because I have misprint & correct of some of the 6 proven text errors. The Warp Artifacts posted here are also a good example.
Attention! I made a mistake: The alignment not of the correct, but of the correctED version must go together. You can only use the Warp Artifact misprint to check it. For the non-corrected text misprints, it is likely that they differ from their pendant, they are two different designed cards.

As far as I see, the El-Hajjâj misprint and Warp Artifact match. Would be nice if you could check it again. Thanks!

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