BENALISH HERO unlimited value ?

Everything about value and availability of Magic items.

Moderators: cataclysm80, Apocalypse2K, berkumps, dragsamou, mystical_tutor, pp, hammr7, l0qii

User avatar
ende73
Legendary Righteous Phoenix Mage
Posts: 866
Joined: Fri Feb 06, 2004 3:17 pm
Location: Rome (Italy)

Post by ende73 » Fri Nov 08, 2013 6:04 pm

Jmaschme wrote:it's probably worth it to get some graded, but I would be careful. Look at ABU's website and you can see that on many cards you're not going to cover your cost unless it comes back as a BGS 9.5 GEM Mint or PSA 10.

Generally, Unlimited isn't worth much as a collectible unless it's also a playable card like P9 or dual lands. Cards that were discontinued after unlimited are ok too like Gauntlet of Might, Word of Command, Lich, Forcefield, etc.

I would look at ABU to get a sense of inventory and pricing. Note that many unlimited cards have centering issues like the other early sets, and on many of the same cards (Bog Wraith is a nasty one to find in high grade in A/B/U). And because not many collect unlimited, you won't get a premium if a card is perfect in everey other way except for centering. So again I would be careful, just my two cents.

But I should actually stop typing because I do happen to collect unlimited and I need more Gem Mint cards to buy! Ignore what I said, get it all graded :-D
Wow, thanks for that great input!

Yes, I agree that grading normal UNL cards is only really worth it if you expect them to get very high grades.

I see that the centering issue is very important and was wondering how it's really assessed. To my mind a card like the Serra I scanned is perfectly centered i.e. I can't really see any issues using my naked eye... or do they actually measure the borders using microscopes or some other instrument ? :-\

User avatar
dragsamou
Administrator
Posts: 5657
Joined: Sat Aug 02, 2003 1:17 pm
Location: Paris

Post by dragsamou » Fri Nov 08, 2013 6:17 pm

ende73 wrote:
Jmaschme wrote:it's probably worth it to get some graded, but I would be careful. Look at ABU's website and you can see that on many cards you're not going to cover your cost unless it comes back as a BGS 9.5 GEM Mint or PSA 10.

Generally, Unlimited isn't worth much as a collectible unless it's also a playable card like P9 or dual lands. Cards that were discontinued after unlimited are ok too like Gauntlet of Might, Word of Command, Lich, Forcefield, etc.

I would look at ABU to get a sense of inventory and pricing. Note that many unlimited cards have centering issues like the other early sets, and on many of the same cards (Bog Wraith is a nasty one to find in high grade in A/B/U). And because not many collect unlimited, you won't get a premium if a card is perfect in everey other way except for centering. So again I would be careful, just my two cents.

But I should actually stop typing because I do happen to collect unlimited and I need more Gem Mint cards to buy! Ignore what I said, get it all graded :-D
Wow, thanks for that great input!

Yes, I agree that grading normal UNL cards is only really worth it if you expect them to get very high grades.

I see that the centering issue is very important and was wondering how it's really assessed. To my mind a card like the Serra I scanned is perfectly centered i.e. I can't really see any issues using my naked eye... or do they actually measure the borders using microscopes or some other instrument ? :-\
Definitions of Basic Card Grades for PSA

[ GEM-MT-10 ] Gem Mint 10 is a virtually perfect card. Attributes include four perfectly sharp corners, sharp focus, full original gloss. The card must be free of staining of any kind, but an allowance may be made for a slight printing imperfection, if it does not impair the overall appeal of the card. The image must be centered on the card within a tolerance not to exceed approximately 55/45 to 60/40 percent on the front, and 75/25 percent on the reverse.

[ MINT-9 ] Mint 9 is a superb condition card that exhibits only one of the following minor flaws: a very slight wax stain on reverse, a minor printing imperfection or slightly off-white borders. Centering must be approximately 60/40 to 65/35 or better on the front and 90/10 or better on the reverse.

[ NM-MT-8 ] Near Mint-Mint 8 is a super high end card that appears Mint 9 at first glance. But upon closer inspection, the card can exhibit the following: A very slight wax stain on reverse, slightest fraying at one or two corners, a minor printing imperfection and/or slightly off-white borders. Centering must be approximately 65/35 to 70/30 or better on the front and 90/10 or better on the reverse.

[ NM-7 ] Near Mint 7 shows a slight surface wear visible upon close inspection. There may be slight fraying on some corners. Picture focus may be slightly out-of-register. A minor printing blemish is acceptable. Slight wax staining is acceptable on the back of the card only. Most of the original gloss is retained. Centering must be approximately 70/30 to 75/25 or better on the front and 90/10 or better on the back.

[ EX-MT-6 ] Excellent-Mint 6 may have visible surface wear or a printing defect which does not detract from its overall appeal. A very light scratch may be detected only upon close inspection. Corners may have slightly graduated fraying. Picture focus may be slightly out of register. Card may show some loss of original gloss, may have minor wax stain on reverse, may exhibit very slight notching on edges and may also show some off-whiteness on borders. Centering must be 80/20 or better on the front and 90/10 or better on the reverse.

[ EX-5 ] Excellent 5 cards show very minor rounding of the corners that is becoming evident. Surface wear or printing defects are more visible. There may be minor chipping on edges. Loss of original gloss will be more apparent. Focus of picture may be slightly out of register. Several light scratches may be visible upon close inspection, but do not detract from the appeal of the card. Card may show some off-whiteness of borders. Centering must be 85/15 or better on the front and 90/10 or better on the back.

[ VG-EX-4 ] Very Good-Excellent 4 cards have corners that may be slightly rounded. Surface wear is noticeable but modest. The card may have light scuffing or light scratches. Some original gloss will be retained. Borders may be slightly off-white. A light crease may be visible. Centering must be 85/15 or better on the front and 90/10 or better on the back.

[ VG-3 ] A Very Good 3 card reveals some rounding of the corners, though not extreme. Some surface wear will be apparent, along with possible light scuffing or light scratches. Focus may be somewhat off-register and edges may exhibit noticeable wear. Much, but not all, of the card's original gloss will be lost. Borders may be somewhat yellowed and/or discolored. A crease may be visible. Printing defects are possible. Slight stain may show on obverse and wax staining on reverse may be more prominent. Centering must be 90/10 or better on the front and back.

[ G-2 ] A Good 2 card's corners show accelerated rounding and surface wear is starting to become obvious. A good card may have scratching, scuffing, light staining, or chipping of enamel on obverse. There may be several creases. Original gloss may be completely absent. Card may show considerable discoloration. Centering must be 90/10 or better on the front and back.

[ PR-FR-1 ] A Poor to Fair 1 card's corners will show extreme wear, possibly affecting framing of picture. Surface of card will show advanced stages of wear, including scuffing, scratching, pitting, chipping and staining. Picture will possibly be quite out of register and borders may have become brown and dirty. May have one or more heavy creases. A Poor card may be missing one or more small pieces, have major creasing and extreme discoloration or dirtiness throughout. Card may show noticeable warping. Centering must be 90/10 or better on the front and back.

Card Flaws

[ OC ] Centering is determined by by comparing the measurements of the borders from left to right and top to bottom. The centering is designated as the percent of difference at the most off-center part of the card. A 5% leeway is given to the front centering minimum standards for cards which grade NM 7 or better. For example, a card which meets all of the other requirements for MT 9 and measures 60/40 off center on the front automatically meets the PSA front centering standards for MT 9. If a card meets all of the other requirements for MT 9 and measures 65/35 off center on the front, it may be deemed to meet the PSA front centering standards for MT 9 if the eye appeal of the card is good. Cards with centering below the minimum standards for the grade will be designated OC. For example, a PSA Mint 9 card which is more than 65/35 off center on the front would be graded Mint 9 OC.

[ ST ] Cards with staining below the minimum standards for the grade are designated ST.

[ PD ] Cards with significant printing defects are designated as PD.

[ OF ] Cards with focus below the minimum standards for the grade are designated as OF.

[ MK ] Cards with writing, ink marks, pencil marks, etc. are designated as MK.

Ungradeable Cards - No Grade Definitions

If the grade of your card is available and is listed with one of the following grades, this card was determined to be un-gradable for the following reasons.

[ N-1 ] Evidence of Trimming: When a card's edge has been altered, a card doctor may use scissors, scalpel, cutter, or any other cutting instrument. A trimmed card may show one of the following: Hook up or down, have one razor sharp edge, a difference in toning along the edge, a wavy look.

[ N-2 ] Evidence of Restoration: When a card's paper stock is built up - for example, when ripped corners are built up to look like new corners.

[ N-3 ] Evidence of Recoloration: Where a card's color has been artificially improved.

[ N-4 ] Questionable Authenticity: This is the term used when a card is counterfeit.

[ N-5 ] Altered Stock: This term is used when the paper stock is altered in one or more of the following ways: Stretching and trimming, recoloring and restoring, trimming and recoloring, restoring an trimming, crease or wrinkle is pressed out, or gloss is enhanced.

[ N-6 ] Minimum Size Requirement: When a card is significantly undersized according to factory specifications.

[ N-7 ] Evidence of Cleaning: When a whitener is used to whiten borders or a solution is used to remove wax, candy, gum or tobacco stains.

[ N-8 ] Miscut: This term is used when the factory cut is an abnormal cut.

[ N-9 ] Don't Grade: Non-graded cards may be oversized or an obscure issue.
Want/Have Lists.
viewtopic.php?f=8&t=8903
viewtopic.php?f=7&t=1515
I Love you Dad.R.I.P.

User avatar
Magic61983
Librarities Legend
Posts: 1085
Joined: Mon Dec 10, 2007 5:28 pm
Location: Willowdale, PA

Post by Magic61983 » Fri Nov 08, 2013 7:03 pm

Here is the BGS info for grades.

Pristine 10

Centering: 50/50 all around on front. 60/40 or better on back. Corners: Perfect to the naked eye and Mint under magnification. Edges: Perfect to the naked eye and virtually free of flaws under magnification. Surface: No print spots. Flawless color, devoid of registration or focus imperfections. Perfect gloss, devoid of scratches and metallic print lines.

Gem Mint 9.5

Centering: 50/50 one way, 55/45 the other on front. 60/40 or better on back Corners: Mint to the naked eye, but slight imperfections allowed under magnification. Edges: Virtually Mint to the naked eye. A speck of wear is allowed under intense scrutiny. Surface: A few extremely minor print spots, detectable only under intense scrutiny. Deep color, devoid of registration or focus imperfections. Perfect gloss, devoid of scratches and metallic print lines

Mint 9

Centering: 55/45 both ways on front. 70/30 or better on back. Corners: Mint upon close inspection. A speck of wear is allowed under intense scrutiny. Edges: Virtually Mint to the naked eye. Unobtrusive specks of chipping on the borders are allowed. Surface: A handful of printing specks or one minor spot. Very minor focus or color imperfections. Clean gloss with one or two tiny scratches barely noticeable to the naked eye. One faint, unobtrusive metallic print line is allowed.

Near Mint/Mint 8

Centering: 60/40 both ways or better on front. 80/20 or better on back. Corners: Sharp to the naked eye, but slight imperfections allowed under close examination. Edges: Relatively smooth borders. Specks of chipping visible to the naked eye are allowed. Surface: A few minor print spots. Very minor color or focus imperfections. Solid gloss with very minor scratches detectable only upon close inspection. Or a subtle metallic print line.

Near Mint 7

Centering: 65/35 both ways or better on front. 90/10 or better on back. Very slight diamond cutting is allowed. Corners: Very minor wear on two or three corners is allowed. Edges: Slight roughness, minor chipping or very minor notching is allowed. Surface: A few noticeable print spots or minor speckling is allowed. Minor color or focus imperfections. Very minor border discoloration. A very minor wax stain on back. Solid gloss with a few minor scratches detectable upon close inspection. A few metallic print lines.

Excellent Mint 6

Centering: 70/30 both ways or better on front. 95/5 or better on back. Slight diamond cutting is allowed. Corners: Fuzzy corners, but free of dings and fraying. Edges: Moderate roughness, moderate chipping or minor notching is allowed. Surface: Noticeable print spots. Minor color or focus imperfections. Minor border discoloration and color or focus imperfections. Minor wax stains or extremely subtle ink marks. Relatively solid gloss with minor scratches, but devoid of scuffing. Noticeable metallic print lines.

Excellent 5

Centering: 75/25 both ways or better on front. 95/5 or better on back. Slight diamond cutting is allowed. Corners: Four fuzzy corners, a touch of notching or a minor ding is allowed. Edges: Noticeable roughness - but no layering. Very slight notching or noticeable chipping is allowed. Surface: Noticeable print spots. Minor color or focus imperfections. Minor border discoloration. Minor wax stains or very light ink mark. Some gloss lost from surface with minor scratches, but devoid of scuffing.

Very Good/Excellent - 4

Centering: 80/20 both ways or better on front. 100/0 or better on back. Moderate diamond cutting is allowed. Corners: Slight notching or layering, or moderate dings are allowed. Edges: Readily chipped or notched and/or slightly layered. Surface: Heavy print spots. Hairline creases. Moderate color or focus imperfections. Moderate border discoloration. Moderate wax stains. Very light ink mark or tape stain. A good deal of gloss lost from surface. Very minor scuffing or an extremely subtle tear in the form of a touch of broken surface paper.

Very Good 3

Centering: 85/15 both ways or better on front. 100/0 or better on back. Moderate diamond cutting is allowed. Corners: Slightly rounded or noticeably notched corners with slight layering is allowed. Edges: Heavy notching, moderate layering or heavy chipping is allowed. Surface: Heavy print spots. Very minor creases. Noticeable color or focus imperfections. Noticeable border discoloration. Noticeable wax stains. Light ink mark or tape stain. Very little surface gloss. Minor scuffing or a very minor tear.

Good 2

Centering: 90/10 both ways or better on front. 100/0 or offcut on back. Noticeable diamond cutting is allowed. Corners: Noticeably rounded or heavily notched corners with moderate layering. Edges: Severely chipped, notched or layered. Surface: Severe print spots. Noticeable creases. Noticeable color or focus imperfections. Noticeable border discoloration. Heavy wax stains. Moderate ink mark or tape stain. A surface devoid of gloss. Noticeable scuffing or a noticeable tear.

Poor 1

Centering: 100/0 or offcut on front or back. Heavy diamond cutting is allowed. Corners: Heavily rounded or heavily notched with noticeable layering. Edges: Destructive chipping, notching or layering. Surface: Severe print spots. Heavy creases. Severe color or focus imperfections. Heavy border discoloration. Severe stains. No original gloss. Heavy scuffing or a severe tear.
BGS 9+ Alpha set 282/295 (97.29%) Avg 9.41
BGS 9.5+ Beta set 283/302 (93.71%) Avg 9.58
BGS 9.5+ Arabian set 35/92 (38.04%) Avg 9.62
BGS 9.5+ Antiquities set 82/100 (82%) Avg 9.64
BGS 9.5+ Legends set 279/310 (90.00%) Avg 9.61

tap4black
Legendary Alpha Collector
Posts: 137
Joined: Wed Aug 27, 2003 1:42 am
Location: The Great Pacific NW!
Contact:

Post by tap4black » Fri Nov 08, 2013 9:46 pm

And other than centering which can be measured, you get into the realm of "subjectivity" by individual graders.

Think of subjectivity like this: Grader "A" who just got a promotion and is going out after work for dinner with his wife followed by a night of sex is likely going to give you better grades than grader "B" who just found out his wife is leaving him for the mail carrier and is taking the house with her in the divorce!

Sadly, there is no hard fast definition of "slight" or "tiny" or "moderate" that can be applied equally by all graders. Beckett does centering by the cold hard numbers, if your card is 44/56 centering, it will get a 9 grade. PSA on the other hand allows their graders to go beyond the numbers if the card shows good "eye appeal" with great focus, perfect gloss, etc. Cards can be graded 10 even if they exceed the 60/40 maximum in this instance.
#2 All Time Finest PSA Alpha Set, GPA of 9.64, now retired and re-graded via Beckett. BGS GPA 9.40 after shipping off several pieces to JM!

Current Alpha Rare count = 1500+!

tap4black
Legendary Alpha Collector
Posts: 137
Joined: Wed Aug 27, 2003 1:42 am
Location: The Great Pacific NW!
Contact:

Post by tap4black » Fri Nov 08, 2013 10:07 pm

And then we get to consistency........

Let me tell you about the travels of a Mint Word of Command I once owned. I bought a BGS 9 copy from ABU thinking of swapping it to a PSA 9 holder for my #2 set. BGS cert number of the card was 6521759 and the card had subgrades of 8.5 centering, 9.0 corners, 9.5 edges and 10 surface. I've crossed over plenty of BGS cards to PSA and have never had a card with subs that high not make the grade. I package it up with 6 other BGS cards and send them to PSA and get the results back a few weeks later. Only 2 cards came back in PSA holders, the rest did not meet the minimum grade I set for them, in the case of the Word of Command, it was a straight cross to a 9.

Angry, I cracked the card out of the holder and sent it in raw to PSA as it looks great and it comes back as a PSA 8! Now I am really pissed as I dropped good coin on the BGS 9 and have paid to have it re-graded twice and did not get the grade I thought the card would get.

Forward to a few weeks ago and a new member here is wanting to put together a BGS set of Alpha and I tell him about the Word of Command I have that was once the only 9 ever graded with none higher. We work a deal for the card which I had removed from the PSA holder thinking I would submit it again. He sends it to BGS and it comes back again as a Mint 9 card but with vastly different subgrades of 9.0 centering, 9.0 corners, 9.5 edges and 8.5 surface, cert number 7889841.

Just goes to show you that no matter how consistent you think 3rd party grading companies are, they can come up with totally different results on the same card and they all make mistakes.

In fairness so as to not sound like a BGS basher, I once sent back a cracked out Alpha PSA 8 Stasis thinking it should have gotten a grade of 9 and it came back a PSA 10 =P~
#2 All Time Finest PSA Alpha Set, GPA of 9.64, now retired and re-graded via Beckett. BGS GPA 9.40 after shipping off several pieces to JM!

Current Alpha Rare count = 1500+!

tromagic
Librarities Member
Posts: 101
Joined: Mon Oct 28, 2013 9:10 pm

Post by tromagic » Fri Nov 08, 2013 10:59 pm

Yes, sometime PSA 8 are very good deal because PSA is very harsh with surface problem.
I have some PSA 8, you need to look at them for a long time to see the default. i kept some of those 8 because i don t think they shouldn t get 8.
Like those 2 black (don t look for default, if you see one it s on the box), the only default is a little relief on the surface du to finger nail or a presure on the card, impossible to see it on a scan :wink:

Image
I collect old MTG cards.

Jmaschme
Librarities Member
Posts: 67
Joined: Wed Sep 18, 2013 8:46 am
Location: Chicago

Post by Jmaschme » Fri Nov 08, 2013 11:37 pm

very happy to be the owner of said Mint Word of Command. There are no PSA 10s and only one BGS 9 (although the registry will of course say there are two). has to be one of the tougher cards. Interestingly enough, there are plenty of high grade Beta examples. Then the card is difficult again in Unlimited. It's interesting to look at the cards that are tough in the early sets. Sometimes there is correlation (Simulacrum, Magical Hack and Forcefield are VERY tough in all three sets), and sometimes there is not:

Alpha - toughest card is probably Stone Rain. but there are many other contenders in Alpha. too numerous to list (Keldon Warlord, Dingus Egg, Bog Wraith, etc.)
Beta - Karma and Stone Giant are the two toughest cards by far
Unlimited - Mana Short and Nightmare. no Gem Mint copies have ever been graded by PSA or BGS

User avatar
thulnanth
Librarities Legend
Posts: 338
Joined: Sun Jul 02, 2006 2:26 pm
Location: Minnesota, USA

Post by thulnanth » Fri Nov 08, 2013 11:42 pm

Hey all,

As Len and Bastien just pointed out, there can be descrepancies in what grades are given to which cards depending on time and grader. This leads to another grading "problem" that most who don't follow graded cards never really notice.

If a card is really nice for the grade (ie - undergraded), people will often hang on to the card or crack it out and resubmit. OTOH, if a card is kind of poor for the grade (aka - "the gift grade"), not only will it not get cracked, but most likely it will get sold so as to cash in on the overgrade. Over time this process leads to many more overgrades circulating in the pool of cards for sale relative to the actual number out there. Myself personally I know I've cracked my best 8's and resubmitted them, and I have 9's that I'd never sell as such because they are just as nice as most of my 10's. :-P

As with most collectibles, the really nice material disappears into collections, while the junk gets recirculated.

Take it easy,
Jared
Ray Thiel (1964-2007) - the man who showed me more wonderful games & gaming sessions than I ever dreamed possible... you ran out of hit points too young, my friend.

paris
Member
Posts: 30
Joined: Tue Jun 04, 2013 7:58 am
Location: USA

Post by paris » Thu Jul 10, 2014 9:23 pm

Magic61983 wrote:
paris wrote:Do there exist any alpha/beta/unlimited cards with BGS 10 and all 10 for subgrades? The only BGS 10 with all 10 subgrades I've seen online is a junk uncommon card (Hinder) that ABU is selling for $350.
This is the only one I know of with all 10 subgrades. I have yet to hear of any A/B/U/AN/AQ/Legends cards with all 10 subs.
A recent Alpha Wooden sphere on eBay that had all 10 subgrades sold for $3,555.

http://www.ebay.com/itm/1993-Magic-Gath ... 1091894351

Sounds like that's the only A/B/U/AN/AQ/Legends with all 10 subgrades so far?

User avatar
Magic61983
Librarities Legend
Posts: 1085
Joined: Mon Dec 10, 2007 5:28 pm
Location: Willowdale, PA

Post by Magic61983 » Thu Jul 10, 2014 10:00 pm

paris wrote:
Magic61983 wrote:
paris wrote:Do there exist any alpha/beta/unlimited cards with BGS 10 and all 10 for subgrades? The only BGS 10 with all 10 subgrades I've seen online is a junk uncommon card (Hinder) that ABU is selling for $350.
This is the only one I know of with all 10 subgrades. I have yet to hear of any A/B/U/AN/AQ/Legends cards with all 10 subs.
A recent Alpha Wooden sphere on eBay that had all 10 subgrades sold for $3,555.

http://www.ebay.com/itm/1993-Magic-Gath ... 1091894351

Sounds like that's the only A/B/U/AN/AQ/Legends with all 10 subgrades so far?
That is correct no other cards at this this point in time from A to Legends has a card with all 10 subs. We'll see if I get lucky on my BGS order. I may have a Legends card in there that hits all 10 subs we'll see I'm keeping my fingers crossed.
BGS 9+ Alpha set 282/295 (97.29%) Avg 9.41
BGS 9.5+ Beta set 283/302 (93.71%) Avg 9.58
BGS 9.5+ Arabian set 35/92 (38.04%) Avg 9.62
BGS 9.5+ Antiquities set 82/100 (82%) Avg 9.64
BGS 9.5+ Legends set 279/310 (90.00%) Avg 9.61

User avatar
mystical_tutor
Legendary Old Fart Magic Player
Posts: 3056
Joined: Mon Dec 10, 2007 3:02 am
Location: Colorado Springs

Post by mystical_tutor » Thu Jul 24, 2014 6:45 pm

For additional comparison I noticed that Star City Games now has a separate section on BGS graded cards. Might pay to peek there and look at prices too.

Gary
Gary Adkison
Father of a former Wizards of the Coast janitor.

Knowledge is proud because it thinks it knows so much; wisdom is humble because it realizes it knows so little.

Post Reply

Who is online

Users browsing this forum: No registered users and 9 guests