Calculated print sheets based on pack openings

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cataclysm80
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Re: Calculated print sheets based on pack openings

Post by cataclysm80 » Fri May 18, 2018 10:59 am

If you'd like to see the miscuts Jakob used as reference material, they're on Facebook.
Here's a link.
https://www.facebook.com/groups/MTGmisp ... 468875825/

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Re: Calculated print sheets based on pack openings

Post by lethe » Sun Jun 03, 2018 5:00 am

cataclysm80 wrote:
Fri May 18, 2018 10:57 am
It's nice to see someone else working on this.
I haven't devoted as much time to it as I would have liked.
Here's a quick write up of what I'd done a couple years ago.

http://forum.magiclibrarities.net/forum ... 967#p89967
I don't remember why I started working on this in the first place, but it may have been your hints about reconstructing the Alpha sheet in the "Compilation of Uncut Sheets" thread. Anyway, I don't know anything about the machinery side, but the pattern I found is the same as what you've said, although there are some unusual cases. (For example: US printings seem to work differently; sometimes in Ice Age and maybe other sets, only one card per column is taken instead of 2-5; sometimes like Legends uncommons only part of the sheet is used at a time.)

I'd love to do Arabian Nights, but I haven't been able to find that many pack openings. Maybe I should attempt it anyway to see how far I can get, but I only have 26 packs in my notes so far (although I should look again -- my search techniques have refined a bit). At the least, you need every card from every position on the sheet to reconstruct it.
cataclysm80 wrote:
Fri May 18, 2018 10:59 am
If you'd like to see the miscuts Jakob used as reference material, they're on Facebook.
Here's a link.
https://www.facebook.com/groups/MTGmisp ... 468875825/
Thanks, this looks like a good source of information.

Also, unrelated, I've updated the first post, mostly with:
  • 4th Edition uncommon sheet
  • Finished US Mirage common run, note on relation between sheet edge and transpositions
  • Visions common info
  • Weatherlight common info
  • Tempest common info
  • Some notes about Portal
I plan to continue. The original intent of this thread was more focused on the sheets that could be completely reconstructed (Belgian sheets I guess), but I can continue posting US print runs as well. I also still plan to do a more comprehensive attack on the whole collation subject somewhere.

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Re: Calculated print sheets based on pack openings

Post by dragsamou » Sun Jun 03, 2018 6:19 am

lethe wrote:
Sun Jun 03, 2018 5:00 am

Also, unrelated, I've updated the first post, mostly with:
  • 4th Edition uncommon sheet
  • Finished US Mirage common run, note on relation between sheet edge and transpositions
  • Visions common info
  • Weatherlight common info
  • Tempest common info
  • Some notes about Portal
I plan to continue. The original intent of this thread was more focused on the sheets that could be completely reconstructed (Belgian sheets I guess), but I can continue posting US print runs as well. I also still plan to do a more comprehensive attack on the whole collation subject somewhere.
Hi Lethe

Great post, about Visions, you need also to take into consideration the Visions Preview cards (Made in USA) that came in specific boosters:
http://www.magiclibrarities.net/145-rar ... index.html

For Portal, some of the specific English sheets 11 x 10 (Made in USA) are on Magic Rarities:
http://www.magiclibrarities.net/129-rar ... index.html
http://www.magiclibrarities.net/558-rar ... index.html

I do have also pics of the Portal English sheets 11 x 10 (Made in USA), if needed:
Portal Common Sheet
Portal Uncommon Sheet
Portal Rare Sheet

For Fourth Edition, all the sheets were printed in Belgium by Carta Mundi, if needed I have pics of:
French Common Sheet
French Land Sheet
Portuguese Common Sheet
Portuguese Uncommon Sheet
Portuguese Rare Sheet
Portuguese Land Sheet
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Re: Calculated print sheets based on pack openings

Post by mmgun » Mon Jun 04, 2018 1:22 pm

I see some problems with your common weatherlight sheet.

The set has 62 commons in total and there are several commons missing in your layout.

e.g
Benalish Knight
Tolarian Drake
Shattered Crypt
Mind Stone
Jangling automaton
Harvest Wurm
Bogardan Firefiend
... maybe even more

So there must be another sheet or whatever
I could not find a proof for the top row either, just some confirmations, that your rows might be correct, especially 1st and last row.

Missing knight sheetedge
Image

Front + Back printed sheet has 1st and last row on each side + connecting Merfolk Trader + Cinder Wall

Image
Image

Connecting Thunderbolt + Ardent Militia on Foreign Sheet

Image

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Re: Calculated print sheets based on pack openings

Post by dragsamou » Mon Jun 04, 2018 5:20 pm

mmgun wrote:
Mon Jun 04, 2018 1:22 pm

Missing knight sheetedge
Image
This Benalish Knight can also come from the Air Forces theme deck from Weatherlight.

Problem with Foreign sheets versus English is that on a lot of Edition or Expansion, they don't follow the same pattern.

Weatherlight (June 1997) 9
Made in Belgium: English, French, German, Italian, Japanese, Portuguese, Spanish
Made in USA: Korean, Korean (Vanguard Gift Box), Traditional Chinese
Existence: English (Made in USA), English (blister pack)
Doesn't exist: Russian, Simplified Chinese
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Re: Calculated print sheets based on pack openings

Post by mmgun » Mon Jun 04, 2018 6:11 pm

However, for the made in belgium weatherlight sheet the japanese and english layout seems to fit.

Still, where are the missing commons ?

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Re: Calculated print sheets based on pack openings

Post by lethe » Tue Jun 05, 2018 5:22 am

dragsamou wrote:
Sun Jun 03, 2018 6:19 am
Great post, about Visions, you need also to take into consideration the Visions Preview cards (Made in USA) that came in specific boosters:
http://www.magiclibrarities.net/145-rar ... index.html
Yes, the data I posted is only for normal English packs, not for preview packs. Since preview packs use a different wrapper, I can tell them apart. I'd like to see if there are any patterns, but I haven't done it yet. It may be hard, because there are fewer pack openings.
dragsamou wrote:
Sun Jun 03, 2018 6:19 am
For Portal, some of the specific English sheets 11 x 10 (Made in USA) are on Magic Rarities:
http://www.magiclibrarities.net/129-rar ... index.html
http://www.magiclibrarities.net/558-rar ... index.html
Wow, I didn't realize these were on the site, that's great! I need to spend more time looking at these, but it does seem like almost all the pack data I collected matches these sheets. Interesting because if these are the only sheets that would mean the commons and uncommons aren't all equally likely, and also that the two-color combinations are not all equally likely...

Also, the precons may be helpful, because I did see one precon opening where the Panther Warriors and Feral Shadow were swapped which could help imply that swaps happen on the edge of the sheet, but I'm still a bit worried about complications from face-up vs face-down precons.
dragsamou wrote:
Sun Jun 03, 2018 6:19 am
I do have also pics of the Portal English sheets 11 x 10 (Made in USA), if needed:
Portal Common Sheet
Portal Uncommon Sheet
Portal Rare Sheet

For Fourth Edition, all the sheets were printed in Belgium by Carta Mundi, if needed I have pics of:
French Common Sheet
French Land Sheet
Portuguese Common Sheet
Portuguese Uncommon Sheet
Portuguese Rare Sheet
Portuguese Land Sheet
I would always love to see more sheets :) The only (non-foil) US sheet I have seen so far is Mirage rare which is not good for figuring out how the swaps work. Comparing the other language Fourth Edition vs what I said the English was would also be interesting.
mmgun wrote:
Mon Jun 04, 2018 1:22 pm
I see some problems with your common weatherlight sheet.

The set has 62 commons in total and there are several commons missing in your layout.

e.g
Benalish Knight
Tolarian Drake
Shattered Crypt
Mind Stone
Jangling automaton
Harvest Wurm
Bogardan Firefiend
... maybe even more

So there must be another sheet or whatever
My great apologies, I forgot to explain these cards in my writeup. These cards work the same as the 7 extra commons from Visions -- every pack contains one in a special slot between the rare and the other 10 commons from the normal sheet. So, I think it is a safe assumption that these appears on the top half of a 10 by 10 rare sheet at 7x each with one 8x (like Visions). (Since there's only one per pack, it will be very hard for me to tell the actual layout or counts conclusively.)

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Re: Calculated print sheets based on pack openings

Post by dragsamou » Tue Jun 05, 2018 6:57 am

lethe wrote:
Tue Jun 05, 2018 5:22 am
Yes, the data I posted is only for normal English Visions packs, not for preview packs. Since preview packs use a different wrapper, I can tell them apart. I'd like to see if there are any patterns, but I haven't done it yet. It may be hard, because there are fewer pack openings.
I have added the 3 Visions sheets
lethe wrote:
Tue Jun 05, 2018 5:22 am

Wow, I didn't realize these were on the site, that's great! I need to spend more time looking at these, but it does seem like almost all the pack data I collected matches these sheets. Interesting because if these are the only sheets that would mean the commons and uncommons aren't all equally likely, and also that the two-color combinations are not all equally likely...

Also, the precons may be helpful, because I did see one precon opening where the Panther Warriors and Feral Shadow were swapped which could help imply that swaps happen on the edge of the sheet, but I'm still a bit worried about complications from face-up vs face-down precons.
I have added the 8 Portal sheets

PORTAL

215 black-bordered cards
85 Common
55 Uncommon
55 Rare
20 Lands
2 List cards
10 Strategy cards
7 Alternate text Cards (only available in the Starter 2 Player)
6 Demo Game cards (only available in the Demo Game booster)
1 Portal English Tip Card (only available in the Demo Game booster)

Therefore a Complete Portal English set is 241 cards.

PORTAL COMMON SHEET 11 x 10

Image
Portal has 85 common. On this sheet there's 55 x 2 = 110 Common cards

PORTAL UNCOMMON SHEET 11 x 10

Image
55 Uncommon x 2 = 110 Uncommon cards

PORTAL RARE SHEET 11 x 10

Image
55 Rare x 2 = 110 Rare cards

PORTAL DECK A SHEET 11 x 10

Printed by Yaquinto.

Image
Portal Alternate Text Cards are located on this sheet as well as the Portal Card List Card 1 of 2

PORTAL DECK B SHEET 11 x 10

Printed by Yaquinto.

Image
Portal Alternate Text Cards are located on this sheet as well as the Portal Card List Card 2 of 2

PORTAL STRATEGY SHEET A 11 x 10

Image
Strategy Cards are located on this sheet

PORTAL STRATEGY SHEET B 11 x 10

Image
Strategy Cards are located on this sheet

PORTAL STRATEGY SHEET C 11 x 10

Image
Strategy Cards are located on this sheet

VISIONS

167 black-bordered cards:
62 Common
55 Uncommon
50 Rare

VISIONS COMMON SHEET 11 x 10

Image
Visions has 62 common. On this sheet there's 55 x 2 =110 Common cards

VISIONS UNCOMMON SHEET 11 x 10

Image
55 Uncommon x 2 = 110 Uncommon cards

VISIONS RARE AND COMMON SHEET 10 x 10

Image
50 rare (only located from row 6 till row 10) and 50 Common (7 different ones only located from row 1 till row 5) for a total of 100 cards
Keeper of Kookus (x 7)
King Cheetah (x 7)
Man-o'-War (x 7)
Phyrexian Walker (x 7)
Resistance Fighter (x 7)
Sisay's Ring (x 8)
Urborg Mindsucker (x 7)
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Re: Calculated print sheets based on pack openings

Post by cataclysm80 » Mon Sep 10, 2018 8:11 pm

I'm glad to see this thread is still going.
Thanks Alexis for posting the Portal sheets. I hadn't added anything after Alliances to the Compilation of Uncut Sheets yet.
Hopefully I'll find time to add more in the future, once I figure out how to upload pics here again.

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Re: Calculated print sheets based on pack openings

Post by dragsamou » Tue Sep 11, 2018 7:31 am

cataclysm80 wrote:
Mon Sep 10, 2018 8:11 pm
I'm glad to see this thread is still going.
Thanks Alexis for posting the Portal sheets. I hadn't added anything after Alliances to the Compilation of Uncut Sheets yet.
Hopefully I'll find time to add more in the future, once I figure out how to upload pics here again.
My pleasure. It depends of which website, you are using to upload pics, on my part I'm using Google Photos, it's not that easy and it takes time, but I know how to use this one at least with some practice.
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Re: Calculated print sheets based on pack openings

Post by Neuron » Wed Sep 12, 2018 8:25 pm

Great thread, don't know why I haven't seen it before. Have you ever tried to reconstruct Unstable sheets?

Image

At first you would think that this is unexpected, but when recalling that some Unstable commons exist in 4-5 different versions, the other ones also should occur multiple times if all are equally common. Unstable must have a rather complicated sheet distribution, maybe more than one sheet for each rarity. I tried to figure out possible sheet sizes by doing some math, but that didn't work out.

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Re: Calculated print sheets based on pack openings

Post by dragsamou » Thu Sep 13, 2018 7:23 am

Neuron wrote:
Wed Sep 12, 2018 8:25 pm
Great thread, don't know why I haven't seen it before. Have you ever tried to reconstruct Unstable sheets?

Image

At first you would think that this is unexpected, but when recalling that some Unstable commons exist in 4-5 different versions, the other ones also should occur multiple times if all are equally common. Unstable must have a rather complicated sheet distribution, maybe more than one sheet for each rarity. I tried to figure out possible sheet sizes by doing some math, but that didn't work out.
Hi Ron

Contraptions are on their own sheet (That at least is known)
6 Commons each have four variants
1 Common has five variants
3 Uncommons each have six variants
3 rares each have six variants

Then you have the 20 tokens (Silver bordered tokens have variants for the back)
http://www.magiclibrarities.net/1158-ra ... index.html

For now, unfortunately there's no pics of Unstable sheets available.
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Re: Calculated print sheets based on pack openings

Post by Neuron » Fri Sep 14, 2018 5:15 pm

dragsamou wrote:
Thu Sep 13, 2018 7:23 am

Contraptions are on their own sheet (That at least is known)
6 Commons each have four variants
1 Common has five variants
3 Uncommons each have six variants
3 rares each have six variants

Then you have the 20 tokens (Silver bordered tokens have variants for the back)
http://www.magiclibrarities.net/1158-ra ... index.html

For now, unfortunately there's no pics of Unstable sheets available.
Thanks for the link, one should also keep in mind that Steamflogger Boss was printed on the basic lands sheet.

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Re: Calculated print sheets based on pack openings

Post by lethe » Sat Sep 15, 2018 11:30 am

dragsamou wrote:
Tue Jun 05, 2018 6:57 am
I have added the 8 Portal sheets
Very much appreciated! I wasn't able to find any swaps on the portal sheets yet, but I was able to find swaps from the Tempest sheet you posted. It seems swaps occur between the first two cards in each row.
cataclysm80 wrote:
Mon Sep 10, 2018 8:11 pm
Lethe, if you're on Facebook, send me a friend request there. I'm easier to reach there.
Unfortunately, I don't use Facebook :(

(I was able to get a friend to help me look at the misprints group though.)
Neuron wrote:
Wed Sep 12, 2018 8:25 pm
Have you ever tried to reconstruct Unstable sheets?
I can put it on the short list. I investigated a little bit in response to your question (but I can do more later hopefully). In modern sets, I think pretty much every card is printed in multiple location on a sheet, or on different sheet. (This is even true for mythic rares since I think modern sets have multiple rare sheet layouts to help combat box mapping.) Unstable is maybe still an interesting case, though. From what best I can tell, the cards with variations should all be counted together as the same card (including all the Killbots as the same card as well even though they have different names) to get 60 commons which is not such an unusual number. (This is also excluding contraptions as Alexis said.) Also note that the commons with variations each have exactly four variations (including Killbots). 60 commons is standard for small sets post-Alara. I don't remember if Medussa did the breakdown for any small sets, but Nima did Oath of the Gatewatch which was two sheets with 22 x3 + 18 x3 and 30 x4.

My preliminary results for Unstable don't match Oath. I have two 25 x2 print runs (not fully reconstructed, but I'm pretty confident). The remaining 10 cards include all the cards with variations (one of each color plus Secret Base and Killbot) and the three other artifacts (Gnome-Made Engine, Made Science Fair Project, Voracious Vacuum). The as-fan for these cards is very low (1-2 per pack, usually 1), so it's harder to reconstruct data. Also note that the 25 x2 = 50 card runs are quite unusually as they are not multiples of 11 (or not even 1 off in a case where a filler is expected). This could mean a different sheet width, or maybe it just isn't a big deal with modern printing technology. (Sheet width may be possible to confirm by findings enough swaps.)

Unrelated, I've also added a bunch of things to the first post:
  • Stronghold common and uncommon info (Belgium only)
  • Exodus common info
  • Urza's Saga common info
  • Urza's Legacy common print runs (USA only), plus vague uncommon notes
  • Fifth Edition common notes (but not complete sheet layouts)
  • Portal Second Age common print run
  • Unglued common print run
  • Core Set 2019 (USA?) print runs (why not?)
  • Also some minor revisions or notes about new info (Tempest swaps, removed Portal, rearranged, etc)
Edit: Of course, I have just now realized that Secret Base has 5 versions and I look foolish, but I stand by everything else I said about UST.
Last edited by lethe on Tue Sep 18, 2018 6:31 pm, edited 1 time in total.

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Re: Calculated print sheets based on pack openings

Post by dragsamou » Sat Sep 15, 2018 7:33 pm

lethe wrote:
Sat Sep 15, 2018 11:30 am

Unrelated, I've also added a bunch of things to the first post:
[*]Exodus common info
[*]Urza's Saga common info
[*]Urza's Legacy common print runs (USA only), plus vague uncommon notes
Hi Lethe

I do have pics of sheets related to these 3 Expansions (maybe not the same rarity sheet for all of them), I will add them later in the compitation sheets, whenever I have time. I need to verify for the others from your list. This is what I have:
Exodus Rare Sheet
Urza Saga Rare sheet
Urza's Legacy Foil Common/Uncommon English sheet
Unglued Rare sheet

Portal Second Age, to take into consideration the 5 Theme Decks and All the Demo Boosters including Portal Second Age cards (including Tip Card or Filler):
http://www.magiclibrarities.net/487-rar ... index.html
viewtopic.php?f=42&t=7248

Let me know which one ones you need to be added in the Uncut sheets compilation
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