Never seen Blastoise with MTG back...

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Never seen Blastoise with MTG back...

Post by dragsamou » Thu Sep 29, 2016 8:10 am

Hi Members

I would like to share pics of a 2 Tortoise Pokemon cards with MTG back. No one has ever heard about it or seen one before. It supposed to come from an Ex-WotC employee. Me and Tav are trying to find info about it and to verify authenticity. Let me know what you think and if you have any input. As a matter of fact, I know nothing about Pokemon cards.

We know about the German Pokemon cards with MTG backs, it's very well documented here (scroll to : *POKEMON GERMAN CARDS SQUARE CUT WITH MTG BACK*)
http://www.magiclibrarities.net/711-rar ... index.html

Image

Image

Image

Image

As not everyone is on FB, I add the post and comments about it erasing names to protect privacy, the very first post was deleted by the original poster. "Owner" is in fact helping a friend owning those cards, in order to get money for him, according to what he said:
Commentator 1:..what happened to the mtg backed blastoises you posted in this group?

Owner: It came down to people being negative.

Commentator 1: :( Pm send

Dragsamou: If you post something that no one heard about or seen before, it's normal that people ask for better pics and info, and also questioning the authenticity. IMHO

Owner: I never heard or seen one of these before either. And next nothing on info about. I have zero reason to doubt authentication because of the source. Commentator 2 knows the source as well.

cataclysm80: These are much more well known, which is why no one is getting excited with a bunch of questions or doubting their authenticity.
If you have any questions about these, just ask and someone may have the answer. The Blastoises are something which is not known to exist, so they caused quite a stir.

Commentator 2: I'm uncertain which you're saying I know the source of. I'm sure I only know of one place where Magic-backed Blastoises could have come from, but I was not previously aware of their existence. This Sky Spirit, as others have said, is fairly well known. I have an Adarkar Wastes in a slightly different variant.

cataclysm80: I think Owner means that X knows the WotC employee that the cards came from.
That WotC employees name has not been shared with the public, so the public is skeptical about the Blastoise authenticity.
They are worth a lot of money if they are verified as real. The easiest ways would be to provide that persons name so that impartial 3rd parties could contact them (if privacy is a concern, the name could be given to well known trusted members of the misprint community such as dragsamou, Magic61983 , or myself, and we will get the cards added to Librarities and stand behind them as real), or have them make a signed statement which includes their name, what they did at WotC, a description of the item, and what they can recall about how they got it.
If for some reason it isn't possible to say who they came from, then providing high resolution scans of the cards is the next best thing. The printing patterns can be checked for consistency with other Magic & Pokémon cards, and we can make sure the cards aren't homemade with an inkjet or laser printer. Potential buyers will probably want to see high resolution scans anyway.
Before paying thousands of dollars for an item that may have some historical significance, people will want to be sure the item is authentic.
The Blastoise's value is high enough that they're worth the effort to authenticate.

Owner: Commentator 2 just about who they came from. Not the cards themselves. It was the same person I aquire the test foils while at proctors.

Owner: cataclysm80 contacting my guy would be useless because you'd get the same answers I'm giving you. I'm thinking about sending all 3 in . If that happens the price will go up. Gotta love graded card prices.

Dragsamou: Owner Can you please send me by PM HQ pics or scans ? I would love to be able to read the copyright line.

cataclysm80: Owner, people expect a seller to say anything that will make their item worth more money.
Having an impartial 3rd party contact your source and get the same answers your providing is exactly what's needed.
You're saying the item is real, but no one has ever seen it before. When someone asks where it came from, there needs to be a real verifiable answer, not a vague story of an unknown person who used to work for the company.
You believe it's real because you know who it came from. The rest of us want the same thing.
It's authenticity needs documented before it gets any further from the source.
When the public accepts that the item is real, you will have more bidders and a higher end value.
As far as grading them goes, BGS refuses to grade test prints because they can't verify authenticity.

Owner: I don't know why all you guys are saying bidders or auction. When they go up for sale it'll be one price / first one gets it.

Dragsamou: Owner I don't understand why it takes so long to get HQ pics, cause before talking about sale or whatever, the very fist step is to prove authenticity. Auction is mentioned because it will be what brings the most money, and I presume you want the max money don't you ?

cataclysm80: That's fine, it's still worth more if it's widely accepted as real, so you could have a higher fixed price if you didn't want to auction it. Auctioning is common with misprints.

Owner: I'm not in the game for money. All I'm doing is selling my friends stuff to help him out. That's the only reason I'm here. And I found something awesome while doing it.

Dragsamou: Owner, If I help a friend that is in financial need, I will want him to get as much money as possible, and apparently the cards belongs to him not to you, as you're just an helper , correct ?

Owner: Yup

cataclysm80: I'm also not in it for the money. I find the history interesting, which is why I'd like to see your items confirmed as real. Otherwise we will have years of speculation.
Down the road when the buyer of your items tries to sell them, they will also have a difficult time if there's a bunch of people who have been claiming fake for years. Best for everyone to lay all suspicion to rest.

Owner: I just talked to him and this was what he said about it:
Owner's photo.
Image

Dragsamou: Remind me of a talk with X and Exalted Games (formerly Proctor Sportscards). As you mentioned the Mini Decks:
http://www.magiclibrarities.net/883-rar ... index.html

Owner: these are different. these are the size of a quarter.

Owner: These were made by him just to have fun with.
Owner's photo.
Image

Dragsamou: Owner,J I know as you can see the subject is well documented on Magiclibrarities, I spent hours talking with multiple sources, did get HQ scans, etc...One more time, I ask, can you provide HQ pics or scans of the supposed Test Print Blastoise ?

Owner: I don't want HQ pictures out until this is done by PSA. Here's one I will share.
Owner's photo (Pic with copyright)

cataclysm80: Assuming they grade it, what will they label it as?
Won't the slab make getting HQ pics more difficult?
Why don't you want HQ pics to be available yet? (honestly curious, I can't think of a good reason.)

Owner: Because of theft and trying to post them for sale elsewhere.
The grade I don't care about. If they slab it then it'll be authentic. Fake cards don't get it.

cataclysm80: you mean that you're concerned someone might use your pic to scam people? (theft of pic)

Owner: Yup.

cataclysm80: Even if you don't share them, you might want to get a few HQ images before its slabbed.

Dragsamou: Owner, I'm speechless with your answer about someone stealing a pic in order to create a card, and me posting for free on Magiclibrarities scan HQ 600 dpi with zoom function héhé PS: Thanks for the pic, what about what looks like a "T" next to the card name on the left ?

Owner: For the way I've been treated I think it's fair. To be honest I used to love trading and selling rarities on the site. Seeing what people found. No so much anymore. I'll be glad when these are gone and won't deal with them anymore. I'd rather throw them away as I find them.

Dragsamou: Owner, Well, you create a buzz showing cards that no one has seen before or even heard about, so of course it's normal and logical people ask about authenticity. On my part, I don't collect Test Prints, Pokemon cards, etc...So, my interest is only historical and eventually add them on my website with the German ones. The financial part is not of my concern. The fact, that there's 2 means that if it's a Test Print or prototype, more should exist. This is an example of Dual Masters cards press approval on an 8th Edition MTG uncut sheet for your understanding.:
Dragsamous photo.
viewtopic.php?f=4&t=9795

Owner: I never seen or heard about these until I found them in the binder.

cataclysm80: PSA & BGS are card Grading companies.
Their job is to judge the condition of a card.
They refuse to do this for fake cards, but that only works if they realize it's a fake card. They aren't actually an authentication company....See More
Which Magic card is Fake? The ungraded or PSA 10…
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=pctfb5Iizc4

Owner: He was talking about the borders. Because I mentioned blastoise. But he also gave me over 100 old pokemon promos so that question was needed.

Commentator 3: Most often when people see something they know little about their immediate reaction is to call it fake and cast negative doubt on it (because they are jelly as F). True collectors either have some vague knowledge of what your posting or are educated e...See More

Owner: yeah I first saw the others on ebay which was cool. I got super excited when I was stripping the binders of stuff for selling and found these. I'll still do some research on them.

Commentator 4:Considering that when I (re)discovered the existence of Portuguese Portal 2 many many years ago, everyone initially thought it was fake, some amount of scepticism is normal and expected, especially of stuff like magic-backed Pokemon cards.

Commentator 5: Owner I'm going to shoot you a PM today if you don't mind.

Owner:Never heard from you.

Commentator 5: Life got in the way again. Will pm when I can friend.

Owner: sure! I'll keep an eye out

Commentator 6:If this goes up for an open auction, please tag me as in interested in bidding

OwnerThere won't be be bidding. I'll set a price and that's it.

Commentator 6:This is a good way to get less than the max possible price :P

Owner Well it's going for sale soon. I got a price I'll be putting it up for.

Commentator 6: k

Commentator 7:Auctions are also a good way to get less as well....the axe swings both ways with auctions.....

Commentator 6: "I want x"
"Starting price is Y but, i reserve the right to not sell" or "Starting at x" and then see if people bid. Boom, impossible to lose

Commentator 7:And its fairly well proven reserve auctions get less bids as well....like I said, the axe swings both ways. Most people argue for auctions so they can hope to get it cheaper than they would be willing to spend....on top of that, some sellers don't wanna deal with an auction....just sell and be done.

Commentator 6:You are yet to list a situation where an auction results in him taking less money from an auction if he starts it with a number he is comfortable with. This is really simple fact here....

Commentator 7: Well, you can have your opinion on how it works. Like I said, people that argue for auctions are purely hoping to get it cheaper than they are would pay......

Commentator 6:I'm not sure you understand what a fact is. If he auctions with a starting price of X it is literally impossible to get less than X. Thus if X is his fixed price, there is 0 financial merit to a fixed price sale. This is not opinion, it is literally the most basic math that X + ABS(y) cannot be less than X
Pics were also posted in the forum of a Pokemon website (according to experts there, those Blastoise are 100% fakes):
- card layout
- artwork exclusively Japanese
- art border
- font type
- lack of "resistance" column
- use of "escape" instead of retreat
- set symbol
- style of language used
- Pokemon information
http://efour.proboards.com/thread/5665/ ... t-mtg-back

Old Topic about Pokemon Test uncut sheets:
http://pokegym.net/forums/showthread.ph ... tion-Cards!
Want/Have Lists.
viewtopic.php?f=8&t=8903
viewtopic.php?f=7&t=1515
I Love you Dad.R.I.P.

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Re: Never seen Blastoise with MTG back...

Post by cataclysm80 » Fri Sep 30, 2016 8:36 pm

Nice compilation of information Alexis. :-D
dragsamou wrote: Pics were also posted in the forum of a Pokemon website (according to experts there, those Blastoise are 100% fakes):
- card layout
- artwork exclusively Japanese
- art border
- font type
- lack of "resistance" column
- use of "escape" instead of retreat
- set symbol
- style of language used
- Pokemon information
http://efour.proboards.com/thread/5665/ ... t-mtg-back
I also know very little about Pokémon cards, but I can see that the list of features provided by the Pokémon group is a list of differences between these cards and regular cards.
different does not = fake

If we look at Magic test prints, we can see that they are often different from real cards.
Test prints are expected to be different from real cards.

Some Pokémon info can also be found at these links.
http://bulbapedia.bulbagarden.net/wiki/ ... expansions

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_P ... _Game_sets

Pokémon cards came out during October 1996 in Japan, and December of 1998 in the USA.
We do not know WHEN this card was made.
When is a very important piece of information as it relates to whether or not the features listed by the Pokémon group are possible.

"Owner" recently provided this additional information to support the items authenticity.
Image

I've looked into this person a bit, and can say that it's a real person, not a recently made fake account. He lives in an area where many old WotC employees can be found. We have mutual friends who are old WotC employees.
We now know the WotC source of the item, and he says it's real.

Tav

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Re: Never seen Blastoise with MTG back...

Post by dragsamou » Sat Oct 01, 2016 6:09 am

cataclysm80 wrote: "Owner" recently provided this additional information to support the items authenticity.
Image

I've looked into this person a bit, and can say that it's a real person, not a recently made fake account. He lives in an area where many old WotC employees can be found. We have mutual friends who are old WotC employees.
We now know the WotC source of the item, and he says it's real.

Tav
Hi Tav

I have post an extra link about what some Pokemon Test sheet looks like. "Short of Pokemon backs", aren't backs on a file, and can be used anytime to create some. That text message provide very few info, it doesn't say where those were created, which year, which company print them, etc...and we all know that any test is done on a sheet with multiple on it. When it comes to MTG Test Prints, there's of course so many differences with a real card, but the illustration is not exactly the same as the Japanese one . Now, I'm not a Pokemon expert, I'm not the one interested in those cards, and certainly won't be the one buying it as they are offered in a private sale with reservve and probably not for cheap, on the Pokemon forum, they have shared their unanimous statement. So for people to believe what they want, and do their own investigation, I've did my best to provide info. For now, I will not add them on Magiclibraties with the German ones.
Want/Have Lists.
viewtopic.php?f=8&t=8903
viewtopic.php?f=7&t=1515
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Re: Never seen Blastoise with MTG back...

Post by cataclysm80 » Sun Apr 25, 2021 7:52 am

Finally time for an update. :-D

I've been following this story since 2016 when it began.
One of the cards was sent to me in 2019, and the other one was sent to me in 2020.
I've also personally inspected the other related cards which surfaced, along with the uncut sheet, and visited with multiple WotC employees and a print facility worker who saw it when it was new.
I learned a lot about Pokémon along the way.

Here is the short version...
In September 1997, Richard Garfield & WotC were granted the patent on Trading Card Games.
In February 1998, a Japanese promo Blastoise was released with this artwork.
Because of the TCG patent, Pokémon needed to start working with WotC in order to expand into North America. Pokémon also stood to benefit a lot from the WotC global distribution supply chain, and WotC experience organizing tournaments. Pokémon signed a contract with WotC to make WotC the marketing and distribution partner for North America.
Digital assets from creating that Japanese Blastoise promo card (and possibly some physical copies of the card) were provided to WotC so that they could redesign the card layout in order to appeal to western audiences. Pokémon employees from Japan visited Seattle to help with this task.
The result of their collaboration was this Test Print Blastoise card made during the summer of 1998, shortly after the MTG Exodus test prints.
The earliest version of this test print is black bordered and is still on an uncut sheet owned by a WotC employee. The rest of the sheet contains unique Magic Test Prints. This was printed at PBM Graphics, and all the Pokémon sheets I've seen from before July 1999 are also printed by PBM Graphics.
The gold border version of the Blastoise Test Prints is identical except for the border color.
Then there was a Blastoise Test Print using the same printing plates on a sample of Pokémon holofoil instead of Magic foil. This sample had a white back. Previously, the Japanese cards were Pocket Monsters and had a matching card back. WotC created the new Pokémon card back, but it might not have existed yet when these Blastoise Test Prints happened.
Near the end of September 1998, the first MTG foil card (Lightning Dragon promo) was released, and a couple days later the Pokémon video game was released in North America.
WotC expected Pokémon precons & Demo Packs to be in stores during November 1998. I'm not sure if they achieved that goal, but Pokémon was definitely in stores for December.
Pokémon Booster packs were released in January 1999, which introduced the concept of trading cards. The older precons weren't intended for trading because you'd have an incomplete deck if you traded some of the cards away. A single precon was considered to be a copy of the game.
After Pokémon was released to North America, WotC began negotiating with Hasbro in January to sell the company.
Around February or maybe early March 1999, there were Pokémon test prints for a different holofoil pattern.
WotC was extremely successful with Pokémon in North America, so they received a similar contract for marketing and distributing Pokemon everywhere in the world except Japan. The earliest Pokemon sheets I could find for areas outside of North America are dated July 1999.
In October 1999, Hasbro completed the negotiations to buy WotC.

Yes, that's the short version.
For the long version, I made a series of 8 YouTube videos describing the journey and showing the cards, the sheet, and other related things.
https://youtu.be/TkOz0x4dKDA

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Re: Never seen Blastoise with MTG back...

Post by cataclysm80 » Sun Apr 25, 2021 7:59 am

dragsamou wrote:
Thu Sep 29, 2016 8:10 am
Old Topic about Pokemon Test uncut sheets:
http://pokegym.net/forums/showthread.ph ... tion-Cards!
I was also able to inspect one of these sheets in person.
They were made at PBM Graphics and one of the pressmen carved his initials into the edge of the printing plate during a press inspection. (this is normal and indicated that the inspection was complete)
It has some unusual features, but was a test of a different holofoil pattern, and occurred during February or early March 1999.
I have many photographs, but the owner doesn't really want the photographs shared.

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Re: Never seen Blastoise with MTG back...

Post by cataclysm80 » Sun Apr 25, 2021 9:10 am

dragsamou wrote:
Thu Sep 29, 2016 8:10 am
Pics were also posted in the forum of a Pokemon website (according to experts there, those Blastoise are 100% fakes):
- card layout
- artwork exclusively Japanese
- art border
- font type
- lack of "resistance" column
- use of "escape" instead of retreat
- set symbol
- style of language used
- Pokemon information
http://efour.proboards.com/thread/5665/ ... t-mtg-back
They were wrong about the Blastoise being fake.
That old thread is locked, but there's been new threads where you can see that many Pokémon collectors believe the Blastoise are real.

https://efour.proboards.com/thread/1489 ... -blastoise
Seeing this thread requires membership to their forum.
It's a lengthy thread from 2019 when the 3rd Blastoise card was discovered.

https://efour.proboards.com/thread/2244 ... zle-pieces
Here's another lengthy thread, which is mostly someone sharing my research with the Pokémon forum.
There's probably still a few misquotes or misunderstandings that I should try to straighten out in this thread, but you can see that many people which previously doubted the card, now believe it's legit.


The terminology used by Pokémon collectors isn't quite as refined as what we use for Magic.
There are still some Pokémon collectors who use the word "fake" to describe any item which wasn't intended for the public. These collectors label all test prints, playtest cards, prototypes, preproduction material, unreleased sets, etc. as "fake", even if those items were created by the official company.



The Blastoise cards have all been graded by CGC.
https://www.cgccomics.com/news/article/ ... blastoise/

One sold on Heritage Auctions for $360,000 in January. (tied for the highest value of any Pokémon single card)

These two things also show that the Blastoise cards are real and have the confidence of the Pokémon community.

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Re: Never seen Blastoise with MTG back...

Post by cataclysm80 » Sun Apr 25, 2021 9:20 am

dragsamou wrote:
Sat Oct 01, 2016 6:09 am
For now, I will not add them on Magiclibraties with the German ones.
The Test Print Blastoise cards with Magic backs should now be added to Librarities.
These Test Print Blastoise cards are much more significant than the 10 Misprint German Pokemon cards with Magic backs which are already on Librarities.
Additionally, the 24 other Test Print Magic cards on the same sheet as the Blastoise should also be added to Librarities.

Here's a picture of the sheet.
Image

A detailed look at all the test prints on that sheet, and the differences between them can be found in this video. Every card on the sheet is different.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=vRvHyK5Y3GI

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Re: Never seen Blastoise with MTG back...

Post by dragsamou » Tue Apr 27, 2021 10:26 am

cataclysm80 wrote:
Sun Apr 25, 2021 9:20 am
The Test Print Blastoise cards with Magic backs should now be added to Librarities.
These Test Print Blastoise cards are much more significant than the 10 Misprint German Pokemon cards with Magic backs which are already on Librarities.
Additionally, the 24 other Test Print Magic cards on the same sheet as the Blastoise should also be added to Librarities.
They will be in the future at some point, but the list of "to do things" is Huge and some other updates are waiting for real long time now. I'm currently working on 27 different projects related to the website, so time is a real issue on top of real life, so I do the best as I can. Now, the different Blastoise have been covered all over the internet, and more and more are showing up, so it's not a real priority, also while having a MTG back, it's a Pokemon Test Print, and and a new subsection will need to be created as all the others are about MTG cards. About the sheet If you feel like writing a full historical write up about it as well as all the differences that could help, I simply don't have the time, I just finish and add an update recently that took 4 monthes, and I'm working on the next one. MTG historical Videos are interesting, but it takes a lot of time to watch some of them, which I don't have, I don't follow anyone related to MTG on YouTube, but I watch from time to time unboxing videos to gather data needed for some specific projects (especially the 3 compilations of sealed MTG products).
Want/Have Lists.
viewtopic.php?f=8&t=8903
viewtopic.php?f=7&t=1515
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Re: Never seen Blastoise with MTG back...

Post by cataclysm80 » Thu Apr 29, 2021 5:17 am

Thanks Alexis, I appreciate that.

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Re: Never seen Blastoise with MTG back...

Post by cataclysm80 » Thu Apr 29, 2021 5:39 am

The Magic Test Print Sheet with Blastoise

Every card on the sheet is unique. There’s a lot of subtle differences, but I’m going to highlight some of the major differences here. Let’s start with the columns which are labeled on the sheet. From left to right, they are...
Skinny Star Uncommon, Skinny Star, Rare, Fat Star Uncommon, Fat Star Rare, No Star Rare.
Each column is different.
(note: the bottom row doesn't have any stars)

Now let’s do rows. From top to bottom, they are...
English Urza's Saga Lightning Dragons,
English Exodus Lightning Dragons,
Japanese Urza's Saga Drifting Meadows,
Japanese Exodus Drifting Meadows with black card name, card type, and artist credit.
various different cards on the bottom row
Each row is different.

With each column being different and each row being different, every card on the sheet is unique.
All of the cards on this sheet are the only copy known to exist.


Here's what's known to exist for the Blastoise Test Prints.
1 black border on the sheet
3 gold border Magic backed
1 galaxy holofoil white backed with rumors of an additional one.

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Re: Never seen Blastoise with MTG back...

Post by cataclysm80 » Thu Apr 29, 2021 5:51 am

Blastoise Sheet Handwriting

Pokey
Test
8 colors
wkcmywwk
1 PASS

The last K pass
10%? risk that the
1  inside@ 20% K screen > screen K will
 # will be @ 100% K blend w 100% K #

Hard – WWK will show up stronger
could even use a black pin line to
accent

skinny
1 star shape + stamp no knockout  go
2 exp symbol color if knockout
3 colorless mana / tap symbol look
circle vs 20% K
4 checkout white overprint – looks fine

Pros
2nd pass version could run at other
vendors

Cons version
2nd pass ^ requires 2nd pass w/
registration worries + handling
worries

1st row shows 4 – color version of mana, would have to fix
position
2nd row
(a) black plate mana symbol happens in 1st five colors
(b) the grey actually = chroma grey = 4 color process
NO example of WWK

For ^ blk ^ for silver  50% K



EXPLANATION
Pokey
Test
8 colors
wkcmywwk
1 PASS
This is a Pokémon Test on a single pass through an 8 color offset printing press.
wkcmywwk = white underprinting, art black, cyan, magenta, yellow, white overprint, white overprint, text black
I’m guessing that the reason for two white overprints is to increase opacity.

The last K pass
10%? risk that the
1  inside@ 20% K screen > screen K will
 # will be @ 100% K blend w 100% K #

Hard – WWK will show up stronger
could even use a black pin line to
accent
The last K pass is text black, which prints the 100% K number inside the colorless casting cost.
The 10% or 20% K screen is the grey circle which contains the colorless casting cost.
> means greater
20% K screen has greater risk of blending with the 100% K number, and that could be a problem.
Black pin line accent seems to be a suggestion for how to avoid the blending problem if necessary.

skinny
1 star shape + stamp vs knockout  go
2 exp symbol color if knockout
3 colorless mana / tap symbol look
circle vs 20% K
4 checkout white overprint – looks fine
The blue text is older, and is notes about comparisons / decisions which need made after the test.
The black text is the conclusion.
Star shape, skinny was chosen (the use of the fat star on the promo card was probably an accident, all subsequent foils had the skinny star)
Stamp vs knockout, knockout was chosen
Knockout is when one or more color layers have an empty space (window or knockout) that allows previously printed layers to be seen without being obscured.
“exp symbol color” seems to be choosing which silver version of the symbol to use for the uncommons
“colorless mana / tap symbol” seems to be referring to the card in the bottom row with all the mana symbols and tap symbol.
White overprint is the white ink used on top of the colored ink to create white text on foil cards. Non-foil cards create white text with unprinted area, but foil cards can’t do that because you’d have foil text.

Pros
2nd pass version could run at other
vendors

Cons version
2nd pass ^ requires 2nd pass w/
registration worries + handling
worries
This test print was created on a single pass through an 8 color offset printing press.
Some of the cards on the sheet are designed to be printed on an 8 color press, while other cards on the sheet are designed to be printed using 2 passes through a 4 color offset printing press.
The 2 passes through a 4 color press can be simulated with a single pass through an 8 color press, but the different layer arrangements between the two methods result in a slightly different quality end product. WotC needed to see the quality of both versions to know whether they were acceptable, and consider the pros and cons of each method.
Vendor is the various printing companies that WotC pays to print cards. They don’t all have a huge 8 color offset press. Designing the cards to be printed on a 4 color press allows flexibility with which print facility is used, and can lower logistics / shipping costs of worldwide distribution. That flexibility also provides some protection against price increases, because WotC can shop around to different print facilities. However, that flexibility comes at a cost, which is different quality and more printing problems, so more of the print run would get scrapped by quality control, and there’s higher potential for customer complaints.

1st row shows 4 – color version of mana, would have to fix
position
2nd row
(a) black plate mana symbol happens in 1st five colors
(b) the grey actually = chroma grey = 4 color process
NO example of WWK

I think this note is about the card on the bottom row with the mana symbols and tap symbols.
Each point size has 2 rows of symbols.
The first row has 4 color mana symbols.
“would have to fix position” I think this means that the mana symbol position is a fixed point on the card and doesn’t float with the text. This creates difficulties when the text is translated into other languages, because the word length is different and the mana symbol may need to move.
This card has a top half and a bottom half which appear very similar at first glance. I suspect that the top half is “(a)”, and the bottom half is “(b)”.
“NO example of WWK” means that this part of the test print doesn’t include white overprinting or a second strike of black ink.

For ^ blk ^ for silver  50% K

This is choosing which style of expansion symbols will by used for commons, and also which style will be used for uncommons.

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dragsamou
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Re: Never seen Blastoise with MTG back...

Post by dragsamou » Fri Apr 30, 2021 6:54 am

cataclysm80 wrote:
Thu Apr 29, 2021 5:39 am
The Magic Test Print Sheet with Blastoise

Every card on the sheet is unique. There’s a lot of subtle differences, but I’m going to highlight some of the major differences here. Let’s start with the columns which are labeled on the sheet. From left to right, they are...
Skinny Star Uncommon, Skinny Star, Rare, Fat Star Uncommon, Fat Star Rare, No Star Rare.
Each column is different.
(note: the bottom row doesn't have any stars)

Now let’s do rows. From top to bottom, they are...
English Urza's Saga Lightning Dragons,
English Exodus Lightning Dragons,
Japanese Urza's Saga Drifting Meadows,
Japanese Exodus Drifting Meadows with black card name, card type, and artist credit.
various different cards on the bottom row
Each row is different.

With each column being different and each row being different, every card on the sheet is unique.
All of the cards on this sheet are the only copy known to exist.


Here's what's known to exist for the Blastoise Test Prints.
1 black border on the sheet
3 gold border Magic backed
1 galaxy holofoil white backed with rumors of an additional one.
I will get back to you whenever I will have time to fully focus on this one and find the time to look at the video carefully. There's probably more questions about that sheet that I have. I would like to do like the others which is a row per row explaining what the difference is per each card. As it's a 5 x 5, that's 25 cards. A pic of the back would be great also (if possible).The Magic Test Print Sheet with Blastoise: There's not another name ? Thanks for the write up.
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cataclysm80
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Re: Never seen Blastoise with MTG back...

Post by cataclysm80 » Sun May 02, 2021 11:12 pm

Just let me know when you're ready and I'll help.
I have individual pics of each card on the sheet. They're not perfect like scans, they're just photographs, and the light bouncing off the foil sometimes looks strange.
I have various pics of the back side of the sheet also.

Regarding the name of the sheet, we could probably choose a different name if needed. The sheet is most well known for being the sheet with the Blastoise on it though. Searching for info on the Blastoise Test Print is how this sheet was discovered.
It could also be labeled as Exodus test prints. Some of these cards have Exodus expansion symbols.
It would probably be better to rename all of the Exodus test prints also, and call them all "Foil Test Prints" or Test Prints for Foils". It's all the same project of developing foil cards, from the Tempest Horned Turtle Test Prints through these Urza's Saga Lightning Dragon Test Prints.
It took several different steps to create foil cards.

The M15 Test Prints are also a single project that has several different steps.

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dragsamou
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Re: Never seen Blastoise with MTG back...

Post by dragsamou » Mon May 03, 2021 5:30 am

cataclysm80 wrote:
Sun May 02, 2021 11:12 pm
Regarding the name of the sheet, we could probably choose a different name if needed. The sheet is most well known for being the sheet with the Blastoise on it though. Searching for info on the Blastoise Test Print is how this sheet was discovered.
It could also be labeled as Exodus test prints. Some of these cards have Exodus expansion symbols.
It would probably be better to rename all of the Exodus test prints also, and call them all "Foil Test Prints" or Test Prints for Foils". It's all the same project of developing foil cards, from the Tempest Horned Turtle Test Prints through these Urza's Saga Lightning Dragon Test Prints.
It took several different steps to create foil cards.

The M15 Test Prints are also a single project that has several different steps.
The name of the sheet is more to match all the others, either mentioning a set and what was tested precisely in this sheet, this is the list so far:

*ALTERNATE FRAME WITH UNGLUED SYMBOL TEST PRINTS*
*ALTERNATE FRAME 8TH EDITION WITH JUDGMENT SYMBOL TEST PRINTS*
*ALTERNATE FRAME 8TH EDITION WITH UNGLUED SYMBOL TEST PRINTS*
*ALTERNATE FRAME 8TH EDITION WITH LEGIONS SYMBOL TEST PRINTS*
*BATTLE OF ZENDIKAR "MELD" TEST PRINTS*
*BETA WITH HOLOGRAM ON THE BACK TEST PRINTS*
*EXODUS BLACK BORDER CARDS FIRST SERIES TEST PRINTS*
*EXODUS SILVER BORDER CARDS SECOND SERIES TEST PRINTS*
*EXODUS BLACK BORDER WITHOUT STAR CARDS SECOND SERIES TEST PRINTS*
*EXODUS BLACK BORDER WITHOUT STAR CARDS SECOND SERIES WITH WHITE BACKS TEST PRINTS (NFC)*
*EXODUS BLACK BORDER WITH STAR CARDS SECOND SERIES TEST PRINTS*
*FIFTH DAWN NEW OVER FOIL COATING TEST PRINTS*
*GERMAN / FRENCH COPYRIGHT TEST PRINTS*
*M12 TEST PRINTS*
*M15 TEST PRINTS*
*PRE-PRODUCTION REVISED RARE QUADRANT PLATE FILM*
*REVISED FIRST BLACK & WHITE SHEETS TEST PRINT ATTEMPT*
*REVISED/FOURTH EDITION HOLOGRAM TEST PRINTS*
*STRONGHOLD SPECIMEN TEST PRINTS CARDS FROM SIMPLIFIED CHINESE 5TH EDITION BOOSTERS*
*TEMPEST TEST PRINTS*
*"TEST PRINTING" TEST PRINTS*
*TEXTLESS "SUMMER COLOR" TEST PRINTS*
*WHITE FOIL TEST PRINT FOR THE STAR*

I know it's the sheet with the Blastoise, but the main point are the MTG Test Prints on that sheet (there's also a sheet with Duelmasters cards but i was labeled as ALTERNATE FRAME 8TH EDITION WITH LEGIONS SYMBOL TEST PRINTS*. I don't think that to label it as Exodus test prints is that good and while the Exodus symbol was used, it might be confusing. ExodusTest prints have always been known like that, I will not want to rename those.

Accrding to your comments this sheet was about testing (Row 1 and Row 2):
Lightning Dragon (Urza's Saga), the first premium (foil) prerelease promo card. First Prerelease with a Unique Shooting Star.
Testing what Urza's Saga symbol and shooting star to be used ?

What was the point of Raw 3 and 4 with the Japanese Urza's Saga Drifting Meadows ?
Testing the Foil shooting Star again for the Prerelease Lightning Dragon or else?

What was the main point of Raw 5 with various different cards (beside testing the Blastoise) ?

Prerelease Lightning Dragon symbol and shooting star Test prints would have been I think a correct name if it was only the first 2 rows. Is this sheet was labeled at some point by WotC back then ?
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